- This topic has 82 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I find it laughable to see someone reach for The Arlington Million to try to suggest group 1 form. Winner Mondialiste went into that race with a 115 Rating and he beat a 6yo rated 115 on the night.
If I were to try to pass that off as true group 1 form I would have been castigated for it.
Give me a P, give me an I, give me an S …etc
I know some don’t have a Worldwide view, but Mondialiste is a two time Grade 1 winner, not only did he win the Grade 1 Arlington Million, but the Grade 1 Woodbine Mile… The horse that Mondialiste beat half a length at Woodbine, Lea is a Grade 1 winner and went on next time out to be runner-up in the Grade 1 Breeders Cup Dirt Mile. Mondialiste himself 2nd to Tepin in the Grade 1 Breeders Cup Mile. Tepin is a multiple Grade/Group 1 winner, also winner of the Queen Anne, Jenny Wiley, First Lady and Just A Game; so 2 1/4 lengths 2nd to Tepin in the most important Grade 1 turf mile race in America is “true” Grade 1 form imo.
I can see why you say “Mondialiste went in to that (Skybet) with a 115 rating” Steve; as am sure you know he’d been dropped due to a disappointing start to the season. Rated 118 previously and 122 by Timeform, now 123. Time Test is 127.
Value Is EverythingThank you for your in depth reply Ginge and yes of course I understand that Mr.Charlton has had a frustrating year with Time Test and I hope he finds the right way to go with the horse as many including yourself have suggested on here otherwise he may be joining Frankel and Bated Breath at Banstead Manor some time soon. (That’s Time Test not Mr.Charlton 😉 ) Jac
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Charlton rolled the dice and made his own bad luck.
If as ginger says the International a big race at York is where connections like to see their best horses run ie the Fair Eva debacle then that was the race he should have made the risk in and not the Eclipse.
And to run him a gallop short against this group 1 horse in a group 2 is nothing short of suicidalBlackbeard to conquer the World
Time Test would’ve run in the International if he’d been ok Nathan.
He came back from the Skybet reportedly in good form, only to go wrong later.
Running a horse in the Eclipse on soft ground is fine, it does no damage. Running a horse in the International when clearly from home reports not right – would’ve been stupid and cruel.Value Is EverythingEven if Mondialiste is a two time Grade 1 winner he is not a group 1 horse on the UK shores. He race Time Test in the UK not in the USA.
If Mondialiste were to pitch up in a proper Group 1 in this country, you wouldn;t be touching him with a barge-pole.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Time Test would’ve run in the International if he’d been ok Nathan.
He came back from the Skybet reportedly in good form, only to go wrong later.
Running a horse in the Eclipse on soft ground is fine, it does no damage. Running a horse in the International when clearly from home reports not right – would’ve been stupid and cruel.Two hard races one on soft and one a gallop short
would that not have taken anything out of the horse…..?I’m not saying he should have run in the International if not right I’m saying if they were going to risk him on soft it should have been the International and not the Eclipse and as it turned out the going for the International was what they had been waiting for.
I think the main difference in opinion here is you believe he wasn’t right had nothing to do with his previous two runs and I believe that he wasn’t because he had two hard races previously.
Blackbeard to conquer the World
Even if Mondialiste is a two time Grade 1 winner he is not a group 1 horse on the UK shores. He race Time Test in the UK not in the USA.
If Mondialiste were to pitch up in a proper Group 1 in this country, you wouldn;t be touching him with a barge-pole.
Depends what price Mondialiste is. Value is everything. 😉 Am not saying he’d be favourite or anywhere near in the QEII or Champion, just that he deserves his place/to be classed as a Group/Grade 1 animal. Time Test too wouldn’t be favourite, but is Group 1 class.
The Breeders Cup Turf Mile has been won by many top European horses. Surely you can equate Breeders Cup form with UK form Steve? Especially when winner Tepin has subsequently won the Queen Anne.Tepin beat Belardo 1/2 length in the Queen Anne with Lightning Spear a further 1 1/4 lengths away in 3rd.
Mondialiste was 2 1/4 lengths behind Tepin in the Breeders Cup Mile, therefore for me it is not difficult to think of Mondialiste as finishing the same 2 1/4 lengths behind Tepin in the Queen Anne. Just half a length behind Lightning Spear… And as Time Test beat Mondialiste 3/4 length in the Skybet, it isn’t difficult to see him at least finishing 3/4 length in front of Mondialiste in the Queen Anne, a neck in front of Lightning Spear. Then, if believing Time Test a touch below his best in the Skybet it is not difficult to (for example) see him finishing half a length or 3/4 length further forward, ie alongside or just in front of Queen Anne 2nd (and Lockinge winner) Belardo.
Value Is EverythingTime Test would’ve run in the International if he’d been ok Nathan.
He came back from the Skybet reportedly in good form, only to go wrong later.
Running a horse in the Eclipse on soft ground is fine, it does no damage. Running a horse in the International when clearly from home reports not right – would’ve been stupid and cruel.Two hard races one on soft and one a gallop short
would that not have taken anything out of the horse…..?I’m not saying he should have run in the International if not right I’m saying if they were going to risk him on soft it should have been the International and not the Eclipse and as it turned out the going for the International was what they had been waiting for.
I think the main difference in opinion here is you believe he wasn’t right had nothing to do with his previous two runs and I believe that he wasn’t because he had two hard races previously.
Depends what “a gallop short” means Nathan. If some way short of peak fitness then you might be right. But sometimes it’s a figure of speech trainers use before a race to limit expectations if expected to win easily. Or afterwards if the performance doesn’t seem quite up to the horse’s best.
Looking at the Skybet, I see no reason to beieve Time Test any more than a length worse than his very best. That doesn’t seem very “short” to me and certainly wouldn’t have harmed him at all… And to run to within a couple of pounds of his best at York suggests to me running on soft in the Eclipse didn’t do any damage either.Value Is EverythingThat’s fine
but Charlton says “He lost a bit of condition and I wasn’t entirely happy with his work leading up to the Juddmonte International,”Is that any reason for the horse to then have to go on holiday and be completely ruled out of the Champion Stakes.?
Lots of horse can lose a bit of condition and have trainers not entirely happy with their work but they don’t get taken out of the yard with no future plans.
Something doesn’t add up here.Blackbeard to conquer the World
For him to be taken out of training suspect there’s a bit more to Time Test’s problem/injury than “not entirely happy” implies.
Value Is EverythingGingertipster wrote:-
Probably because the owner and owner’s racing manager know more about both horses (and trainer) than you do Jac.Reply Triptych:-
So unless you have been in a meeting with Teddy Grimthorpe and Prince Khalid regarding the future of Time Test how much more do you know Ginger that would confirm your superior knowledge of horses in Mr. Charlton’s yard to make the following statement.
Gingertipster wrote:-
Wouldn’t be a surprise if that might be his last race for Charlton on his way to Brown.Reply Triptych:-
Just an opinion and we’re all entitled to those aren’t we Ginge? Sorry the quotes have gone beserk on here
I think the Thread is overloading and about to detonate
If you reviewed the history of Juddmonte horses, in Europe, over the last two decades, you would see a bit of a pattern.
Often, from 4-5 years of age, there will be a number of horses in the European stable that were bridesmaids in Group 1 races, or horses that won a Group 1 or two but really should have done more, or just very good horses but the competition is deep in their division. Where the horses likes good ground and fails to get it in Europe, Juddmonte have often sent their horses to the US; First to Bobby Frankel, then William Mott and more recently Chad Brown, a former Assistant of Frankel
Many of the best trainers in the ranks have had horses taken from their yards. It was nothing personal just they wanted to get a better stud record for their horses. Loads of Fabre’s went Stateside such as Champs Elysee, Zambezi Sun, Treaty Gently and recently Flintshire and of course Proviso. Many of them dominated their divisions in the US, the later on dirt of all grounds. Henry Cecil saw Beat Hollow go State side. Perrett had Ventura who did little in Britain and then became a multiple group 1 winner on turf and dirt for Frankel
You study who heads over to the US regularly, you kinda can make an educated guess what can happen to many of the horses. Abdullah tends to have a long history of loyalty to his trainers, Charlton being one of his first in the UK. He is too classy to be swamping trainers in Europe. There are a number of reasons by Prince Khalid does not get the same reaction people seem to get compared to other Arab horse owners.
Anyho, Charlton spoke with Champman before the Doncaster Cup, it seems that he is being prepared for the Breeders Cup
Sounds like Time Test indeed leaving Charlton for the States.
I hope people don’t take this as a criticism towards Charlton. This is not unusal, sure many of Fabre’s horses were sent State side. It is a good call. Flintshire is hardly going to hang about next year and Juddmonte tend to like having a good horse or two in the US
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.