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Fist
Apologies what I meant to say was the winner of a sub standard Gold Cup. Also I was just using the Kauto Star / Exotic Dancer distances to mirror your Sublimity / Afsoun comparison. It seems excuses, reasons or comparisons are OK for some performances but not others but hey we’ll agree to disagree.
As an aside do you think Kauto Star will become the first horse to regain his Gold Cup crown having narrowly missed out on becoming the first horse to win back to back King George’s & Gold Cups ?
No need to apologies from that point of view I agree it wasn’t a great Gold Cup but it was the best for more than a few years. There were no Exotic Dancers going around in Best Mates times eg.
What we have to remember is that Kauto Star improved one helluva lot between the Gold Cup and the King George.
Tony McCoy said after the race he head never seen a horse like him and you would need Pegusus to beat him.
That performance was miles better IMO than anything Denman has ever done or is ever likely to do.
You can do anything with form but you can’t change the fact what Kauto Star did that day was awesome.
Look at the Lexus form it’s appauling in comparison to the King George form….Old Vic beat the same horses as Denman and at levels at Cheltenham……. and beat them just as easily.
Denman is a very good horse, one of the best for sometime. If it was Best Mate and him in a gold cup Best mate wouldn’t get within 10 lengths of him IMO but it’s not Best Mate.
I still believe Kauto Star is the best chaser seen on a racecourse in 40 years. If and when they meet again Denman better hope Kauto is on an off day again…….If not and Kauto Star travels the way we know he can and jumps as well as he can, the big horse will be in big trouble.
I hope he gets the chance to prove it and they both stay safe and sound.
It’s the one thing I don’t like about todays racing. It’s way to easy for good horses to avoid each other………in 11 months time either or both might not be in good enough order to run in the Gold Cup..God forbid.
The season ahead will be interesting and the one race I am looking forward to is The Hennessy………hopefully a few good horses will take Denman on this year…….if NC can get within 7 lengths of him ay levels when he’s on the top of his form. more than a few trainers will fancy their chances of toppling him getinting lumps of weight……..hopefully Jonjo with Exotic Dancer will be one of them………He’s no Arkle this Denman he definately finds very little at the end of his races, he wins his races someway out and just stays on……..If something can get close to him and has a bit of toe he could easily beaten……….of course Kauto Star aside that’s a big if.
I still believe Kauto Star is the best chaser seen on a racecourse in 40 years. If and when they meet again Denman better hope Kauto is on an off day again…….If not and Kauto Star travels the way we know he can and jumps as well as he can, the big horse will be in big trouble.
Agreed.
To me, seems the 4/1 available for the ’09 GC is just a bet on the going. If it’s better than this year’s – KS wins. If it’s the same, KS again (unlikely he’ll have off-days in two successive GCs ). If softer, Denman.KS showed enormous bravery, Denman was on a treadmill after the last.
He’s still 5’s with Cashmans and you can get on EW………not bad for a horse to stay sound for 12 months
I just found this on U-Tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XEMNQdZIhE
Kieran Packman of Timeform has something interesting to say about Sublimity at the end
Also what Matt Chapman had to say about his visit to John Carr’s stable and the pr-race remarks from P Carberry are very interesting.
Fist of Fury 2k8 wrote>>>
I still believe Kauto Star is the best chaser seen on a racecourse in 40 years. If and when they meet again Denman better hope Kauto is on an off day again…….If not and Kauto Star travels the way we know he can and jumps as well as he can, the big horse will be in big trouble.___________________-
What if Denman wins their next meeting.
I suppose Kauto Star will have had one of his off days… again.Between the two, I believe Denman is the horse who has further improvement in him – therefore, I would suggest that Kauto Star (whom I think we have seen the best of ) will find it doubly difficult to overcome a fit and ready Denman.
Most of us agree that Kauto’s best chance of defeating Denman would be at Kempton on Boxing Day. However, the prospect of both horses clashing in the King George is highly unlikely, as Paul Nicholls is already on record as saying that Kauto Star would aimed for that race, but not Denman.
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I have my doubts that Denman will improve much he’s a huge horse who looks as if he has already reached his prime and is very hard to fault.
He won the Gold Cup in great fashion but was flat out and Kauto would have finished what? 4lengths perhaps? behind him but for a horrible mistake at the last.
The facts are the ground was dreadful and it affected Kauto very badly. The last was far from being his first error…….he wasn’t at any stage jumping with the fluency he show at Kempton or Ascot.
Ruby Walsh also indicated he may have left his race at Ascot.
He also said the horse never felt right to him at any stage.
We seen a vastly improved Kauto Star this year and perhaps Ruby is right and he was over the top.
His performance at Kempton was the best I have ever seen in the race……he was an absolute machine that day.
Many were impressed by Kauto at Ascot but I wasn’t. He had to be ridden out that day and Racing Demon had finished closer to him than he had at Kempton.
At the time I put it down to his injury and thought he must have been feeling it a bit. I thought before the race he would win with his head in his chest as he did at Kempton so I was as I say disappointed.
I suppose there’s a possibility he was hurting that day and had that on his mind when he ran at Cheltenham…I really have no idea what was going on in his head.
I jsut feel there is enough ammo there to fire shots at the big horse or I wouldn’t be doing it.
Don’t get me wrong it was a great performance of jumping one of the best I’ve seen but despite the time of the race he beat what?
an undercooked Kauto Star, a horse everyone says is improving but is simply not Gold Cup material (wait and see how he runs next time if you doubt my judgement) and Exotic Dancer who at best could have done with the race being put back a month.
The rest aren’t worth talking about where Denman and Kauto are concerned.
So Denman’s for is still being questioned unfortunately.we all know he’s good but how good remains to be seen.
Sublimity won the Champion Hurdle but stick him in the triumph this year he wouldn’t even have won that…….winning one race doesn’t make Champions.
Denman won the worstt running of the Hennessy I have ever seen it was a pig of a race……….apart from Snowy who fell only Knowwhere has won a race I believe. The Lexus for has been let down big time at Cheltenham in Our Vic’s Race and now he’s won a Gold Cup where half the racing world is saying Kauto Star was no where near his best and aboat has almost beat him for second……….The big horse was knackered doing it remember.
Long way to go yet "H" and it will all start again next season…I said I wouldn’t run Denman in the Hennessy again but they probably will….be interesting to see how he handles them this time……I can’t believe it’s a lousy grade 3 now and the money is so little……hopefully someone will run something decent this year and at least let us get a fair judgement on how good this big horse really is………in a sense I wish he had won the Gold Cup by 20 lengths and Kauto had run right up to his very best…..then we would know…..right now I don’t think we are one bit wiser, on which is best, than we were before the Gold Cup.
I’m back on for next year at 5’s and 4’s…..which won’t be seen agin if Kauto bounces back to his old self…….money for old rope mate get on Cashman’s will lay you EW at 5/1 can’t be bad
……time to change camps?Time will tell, Fist, which of us is proved right.
Maybe we’ll both be wrong and Exotic Dancer will do what his supporters have been threatening all along, and eclipse them both.
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