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Does anyone know what the stud fees for a pattern class winning first year stallion or mare would be? What would it be for the winner of a high class handicap? Does a listed class winner earn more than a big handicap winner at stud? Very general question I know….
A bit ‘how long is a piece of string’ question this.
First off  – mares don’t have stud fees as such – the mare owner usually pays the stallion owner for his services.  A better mare can negotiate a bigger discount, but the purposes of this question I’ll just talk about colts.
At the bottom end of the market, where Listed and Handicap winning new sires would be, the race record doesn’t make that much difference.  Big handicap winners like Pasternak and Clerkenwell stood their first few seasons at about £1000, while a Listed winner like Medaille Militaire can stand at £750, or Beat All (Listed winner, Derby placed) was £1500.
By contrast, a horse like Catcher In The Rye, who never won above maiden level but also had a classic place, can command £2500.
I did a post on this the other day about the factors involved in setting stallion fees.  Sire line, pedigree, conformation, temperament, fashionability and availability are all just as important as race record – and is much more than just saying listed/Group/handicap class.  For example – two July Cup winners,  Oasis Dream and Pastoral Pursuits have retired to stud.  One stands for £25,000, the other for £6,000.
<br>Does this help at all?
Thanks Sal that does help and I do appreciate it is impossible to have any definative figures for this kind of thing.
Would you have a link to your post on the factors involved in setting stallion fees?
Many thanks
I’m not sure this is going to make sense out of context, so I’ve tried to edit my original post a bit.  It was from a discussion about George Washington’s vs Giant’s Causeway’s stud fees.
"Prices for stallions are usually based on several factors:
a) Ability as a racehorse (champion, rating, etc). <br>b) Appeal as a racehorse to breeders – ie variety of distances.  A horse winning his big races at only one distance (ie Sinndar) or only at extremes (ie specialist sprinter/stayer) will not have as much appeal.  Having success on dirt to appeal to the American market is also important. <br>c) Conformation. <br>d) Stallion pedigree – how well-related he is on the dam side. <br>e) Sire, and particularly how popular and accessible that sire line is.
Giant’s Causeway is a very different case to George on most of these fronts. <br>a)  GC won 6 Group one races and was never out of the first two.  GW has 3 Group ones and has been third in a Group 2, and has never won an all-aged race (this was a few weeks ago!).  <br>b) Giant’s Causeway won 3yo Gr.1s at 8 and 10f.  GW is unlikely to prove himself at distances other than a mile this year.  In addition, GC’s second in the Breeders’ Cup pretty much doubled his stud fee by bringing instant appeal to the American market. <br>c) About equal – but GC is far the superior in temperament and toughness. <br>d) GW’s dam line is comparitively weak.  To be honest, being half-brother to a nut-job like Grandera is a liability – particularly as GW has shown himself to be far from straightforward. <br>e) Stallion sons of Danehill are not exactly an endangered species, and as such do not have great rarity value.  They are popular, yes, but not an outstanding prospect. A Gr.1 son of Storm Cat, performing at the highest level on both sides of the Atlantic, is much more precious."
<br>At the lower end of the scale, conformation and toughness are much more important, particularly for sires aimed at the NH market.  Geography is also important – some British stallion owners offer lower prices on quality stallions to stop mare owners being lured to Ireland by the tax situation.<br> <br>The advertised fee is also not often the final price – some winning mares get concessions; an important breeder might get bulk discounts; or foal share and first pick rights might come into play.
In the end the fee works out at how much mare owners are willing to pay.
Have you a colt in mind?
Thanks Sal, that really is very insightful.
I’m trying to guage the relationship between racecourse performance to stud value in pattern class horses. I’ve long concentrated on better class racing with my NH betting and I intend to do likewise with the flat from next season.
If there are any sites or boards with more info on this topic please pm me.
Thanks again
Makes interesting reading
Interesting stuff. Sal have you any thoughts on sires that you consider are good value for money and ones that you consider poor value for money? Cheers.
Sorry, yeats, v. rude of me not to reply early.
Stallion value often depends much on the mare lined up as a potential mate – an expensive stallion can be great value for one mare and a waste of money for another, depending on their compatibility.  Likewise, going to a good stallion just because he is cheap is not the best policy.
Generally though there are a few l like.
The Aga Khan’s trio of Dalakhani (€35,000), Daylami (€25,000) and Sinndar (€20,000) are value, mainly because they are a little different.
Efisio is good for £12,000, particularly as he suits a wide range of mares.  Diktat at €9000 is also interesting because of his sire line and the good sires from his dam line.
I like Fantastic Light (the Rahy sire line should get more patronage) and he is priced about right at £20,000.
Of the Danehills, Rock of Gibraltar is fairly priced, as is Oratorio at €30,000.  However, the best value one around must be Dansili at £12,500, although I expect that to rise very soon.
Galileo’s first two crops are looking like bargain of the century, but I don’t think his current price of €37,500 is going to stick around for next season either! ÂÂÂ
Nayef’s not had foals of racing age yet, but £15,000 isn’t bad, and with the right mare Monsun’s fee of €60,000 would be well worth it.
Bad value?  Hate to say it, but my old favorites Cadeaux Genereux and Indian Ridge are starting to look at little expense (even despite Indian Ink) at £20,000 and €75,000 respectively.  I wouldn’t want to pay full price on Pivotal’s current fee of £65,000, unless I was dead sure about his suitability – ditto Danehill Dancer at €75,000.  Halling is too high at £30,000, given he has not yet sired a Gr.1 winner.  Coolmore have a couple of rubbishy third-rank Danehills, who aren’t really value, despite being €5,000 or under.  And finally, One Cool Cat – shouldn’t even been granted a place at stud, so €15,000 is silly.
:angry:
Best value sires of the minute are probably Refuse to bend (Saddlers Wells/Gulch) at Darley for £20,000 is a similar type of sire on breeding to Galileo but was obviously a much speedier horse (and quirkier with it), should knock up colts and fillies and go with almost any broodmare.
Coolmore have loads of value sires depending on how you breed them, Storm Cats offshoots tend to go well with mr prospector fillies, so van nistlerooy (who cost 6million when bought and so regardless of what he done on the track was obviously physically a good early developer) is great value at £6,500, with a low priced mr propector filly (by titus livius etc) you could in theory get an awesome horse for less than what you might expect to pay. Shamardals mother was a 7f all weather performer by machiavellian and he only cost £38,000 but had class coming out of his ears. Hamoody looks the same.
Thanks Sal for your in-depth and interesting reply, much appreciated and Bulwark for yours.<br>I agree Galileo & Dansili’s stud fees will be in for hefty increases, I may be wrong but I seem to remember a few weeks they said Efisio was being retired.
Thanks again :)
Haven’t seen any news on Efisio being retired, yeats, but it could have passed me by!!  Need to check my lists in the morning now… :)
Interesting that Bulwark mentions Van Nistelrooy.  The other day I spotted that he was listed as the leading first season sire in New Zealand this (2006-2007) season.  Closer inspection showed that this was with one runner/one placed/$1000 – as the season has only just started and only one other first season sire had had placers at the time!!  But it shows, as you say, decent early types.<br>
Very interesting insight Sal, in an area where I have little insight.<br>Given the surfeit of racing and proliferation of Group races, why should a humble listed or h’cap winning horse be worthy of a place as a stallion? Presumably it would have to come from exceptional bloodlines itself to be considered under these circumstances? Which do you consider to be undeserving?
I reckon that van nistlerooy may possibly sire smart horses, not just decent early ones, Storm Cats generally powerfully built horses are very good early on because they are physically so further forward and train off at three, where their quirks are a little more noticable, but with second generation Storm cats you can sometimes have the quirkiness bred out of them, look at giants causeways first crop. Johannesburgs first crop has thrown up some smart horses too (despite the fact that coolmore have clearly focused their main attention to the rock of gibraltar first crop, which currently looks like a "D’oh" manouvre, with the exception of eagle mountain ive not seen a smart one) with mr prospector crosses, Hamoody and Scat Daddy in particular. Aslo, Rabatash (out of a marju mare) looks to have considerable potential.
Generally, Northern Dancer sires, and particularly Storm cat off shoots go very well with mr prospector mares, and have serious scope. Saddlers Wells (stamina sires dont tend to hit their best till 3) but I beleive that the main purpose of the 2yo season is to train a horse for tactical speed, and if you have a good stamp of a horse at two, he just needs to train on, which is more down to the horses temperament than anything.
I generally prefer northern dancer for producing colts and mr prospector for producing fillies. Obviously its not as black and white as that. But my favorite horses are colts sired by northern dancer out of mr prospector mares as they are almost always good. Shamardal, Galileo, Motivator, Refuse to bend etc are a few typical examples.
I agreed with much of that, Bulwark, but I do find it frustrating that Mr Prospector line mares so often get sent to ND line stallions.
Other lines such as Halo, Seattle Slew, Roberto and even Shirley Heights have comparable Blacktype winner to runner ratios with ND lines for some Mr P line mares, in some places even better.
These alternatives are given far less opportunities than they deserve. It is easy to produce at least one superstar from 500 versions of the same cross! I think it becomes habit for breeders, rather than thinking through all the consequences for individual mares.
Kings best, like his sire kingmambo, can sire some good fillies, and obviously with proclamation he can hit a good colt. But i generally find that his colts are quite poor (in terms of consistency,like a lot of mr prospectors colts) and i found last year that it was easier to bet against his first crop, he has some nice fillies like queens best and la mottie (not top class but consistant).
Antonius Pius is a horse i always liked, he had bags of ability but was quirky as you like, he is by the almighty danzig (sire of all things quirky but talented) and hails from a very strong female line. I’d say if you were to breed off him, however, you really want a colt. Danzig fillies are a general nightmare and i usually stay clear of them.
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On the subject of Shirley heights, etc personally wouldnt ever choose to breed anything off them, their offspring are generally inconsistant, unless you hit an occasional star. Dalakhani was a shirley heights mr. p cross but generally, shirley heights are very hit and miss and miss and miss.
At the cost of a shirley heights sire its easier to just go with northern dancer who is the proven better line. Shirley heights works well for stamina broodmares however but overall im not a fan.
All the others are generally not seen as much over here but seattle slew has been done to death in the states and to no real major significance. Roberto knocks up the occasional decent type but not enough.
Consistency is the key, and northern dancer is the best.
One northern dancer sire who hasnt been used enough is fairy king, he has given us Falbrav and aussie supersire Encosta De Lago
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