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Hi,
everyone, a new boyhere.
I have been see-ing references to a "stamina index" both here and on another forum, E.G., "Flat Stamina Index "
I have always assummed that the bracketed figure after a Stallion’s name on His bloodstock sheet, was his Mean winning distance. Are there other
or differently defined "statistics" which I have failed to find?
There appear some reasons to suspect that it is Progeny which are used
to arrive at an index.
Are there different Indices and if so where?
I cant be the only ignorant person in racing, but I sometimes think I’m the only one who admits it!
Brain -me, Man!Timeform’s Statistical Review
uses average winning distance of a sire’s offspring by age category to come up with what others may wish to call a stamina index. E.g. Dalakhani has a 3-y-o average winning distance of 11.6f, Acclamation has one of just 6.4f.
Most stamina indexes are some sort of a variation on this theme.
You may find the following a useful free resource:
The one that I refer to is the one in the Racing Post, and on the Racing Post website.
It is the average winning distance of a stallion’s progeny aged 3yo and upwards.
This is misleading in the case of some National Hunt stallions, as it may be influenced by just one offspring racking up a seres of victories at a short distance.
It will also fluctuate if a stallion’s first progeny are only 3 or 4 yo.
You also have to bear in mind for instance that a 12f stallion will often be mated with mares whose forte was 8f or 10f etc, so this will drag the stallion’s FSI down.
It can also be inaccurate for some Damsires, as I gain the impression the figure is only based on races since the mid 1980s.
Okay, I’ve got a bit of time now to give a more expansive reply.
First of all, I didn’t realise until today that in the newspaper the Racing Post only publishes the Stamina Index for 2yos and 3yos, and only for the Sire and not the Damsire.
If you look up a horse’s form on http://www.racingpost.com , you will see the numbers in brackets next to the Sire and Damsire of the horse in question.
Just to make clear, the figure for the Damsire is that achieved as a Sire.
It seems to only take account of Flat races run in Great Britain & Ireland since 1989.
I’ll give a few examples so that you may become aware of the pitfalls in the numbers.
Snowy Morning’s Sire is Moscow Society, who has a FSI of 11.4f
Moscow’s Flame contributes to Moscow Society’s figure by winning a 5f h’cap at Down Royal, and a 6f h’cap at Laytown, achieving a Racing Post Rating of 42 for each victory. Now some of us may regard Laytown as little better than a flapper track, and others may question whether it is right to include wins that are so lacking in merit. I’m just showing that any Flat win in GB&I by a 3yo+ since 1989 goes to make up the figure, and anything abroad or before then doesn’t (as far as I am aware).The 3yo Art Connoisseur is by Lucky Story, and is from his first crop. Lucky Story has a FSI of 5.0. This figure comprises of one race won by one horse, Lesley’s Choice.
Lord Shanakill, who will be running in the 2000 Guineas on Saturday is also a 3yo from his Sire’s (Speightstown) first crop. Speightstown’s FSI is also currently 5.0f, comprising 1 win. However, if you look at Speightstown’s progeny on the RP website you will see that he has also had winners this year over 6f (Gulfstream Park), 7f (Santa Anita), 9f (Aqueduct) and 5f (Woodbine). Of course, these are unlikely to be all the wins, just the better ones. These victories are all excluded from the FSI, because they happened overseas.
Ballyfitz’s Damsire is Rymer, who has a FSI of 7.5f
If you click on Rymer, and look at his progeny stats, you will see that on the Flat they have achieved 30 wins out of 386 runs. However, if you then look at the progeny, the only winner listed is Rymer’s Rascal, who won 11 times. Now, the race that Rymer’s Rascal won over 6f is excluded because it occurred as a 2yo. So the FSI of 7.5f has been calculated from the 5 races that Rymer’s Rascal won over 7f and the 5 he won over 8f. What has happened to the other 19 Flat victories that Rymer’s progeny achieved? Did they all occur in France?Hope that’s illuminating.
The site uses a Speed/Stamina index based on both sides of the pedigree
Good Luck
Monster
Thank you very much, Gentlemen all,including any further posts.What I have learned so far is that I have a lot of study to do, but am now getting a
better level of help. I will comment again after following these leads,and meanwhile will keep watching.But it does’nt look as if there is one clear
answer, which makes decisions(betting) based on another persons ideas
about "F.S.I." difficult to evaluate.
Further comment welcome.Hi Ugpug1
who else has been using "FSI" for betting selections apart from me? I’d be interested in reading their stuff.
Gerald
Hi ugpug1 and welcome to the forum.
I am always very cautious of any figures produced for horses using equations or formula that I don’t fully understand the logic behind, or know how they are arrived at.
Thank’s, Dave Jay, for the Welcome.I sort of share your suspicion of any
" Horserygook", but if we dont succeed in finding an angle we is all cooked
birdie’s, so we have to keep looking.
Lets all keep up the good work, I dont have enough time recently, but if the thread stays alive I believe some of us may profit in due course.Thank you , Gerald, for your several and generous contributions.
Your latest makes me wonder if my impulsive cry for help was insufficiently careful of possible complications.It does’nt help that I am very
infantile at using the computor.
On a forum relating to a very different "discipline", but apparently using the same software package, I was able to do "private messages " with another user. do they do that here, do you know ?
Keep up the good work!Hi,Team, just keeping my status alive. I recently spent an hour composing
a post, and the system wiped it before I posted!!! With ref to my last, it is definately worth stating that ALL the free links so kindly supplied on this subject by others are extremely interesting.I seem to be mixing with a better class of wannabe!………..
ugpug
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