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ARDOSS pair clearly saw out the trip, as did OATS and STALKER
Those that didn’t were KEFAAH, MIRROR BOY, ORCHESTRA.
MIRROR BOY & ORCHESTRA offsprings has weakened in their comments which leads me to this conclusion.
Second race data still keeping with the Eider Chase the details are as follows:
Tote Northern National Showcase Handicap Chase, Class 2 (0-150) (5yo+) 4 miles 1 furlong 23 Fences (2 omitted), 12 ran, Going Heavy
Won
Narrow Waters
by Mazaad and Miss Doogles (Beau Charmer)
Close up, led 3rd, hit 5th, headed 2 out, led last, stayed on well.
2nd by 3.5 lengths
Scotton Green
by Ardross and Grange Hill Girl (Workboy)
Held up, headway to track leaders 16th, led 2 out to last, not quickened.
3rd by short head
Seven Towers
by Roselier and Ramble Bramble (Random Shot)
Held up, headway and prominent 16th, soon ridden, outpaced before 4 out, stayed on strongly from last.
4th by distance
Royal Tommy
by Royal Fountain and Cherry Token (Prince Hansel)
In touch, headway 10th, disputed lead 15th until hit 17th, outpaced next, no impression when blundered 5 out.
5th by 2.5 lengths
Him Of Praise
by Paean and Tamed (Rusticaro)
Behind, lost touch from 10th, never on terms.
6th by distance
Lady Of Gortmerron
by Orchestra and Tara Grey (General Ironside)
Close up, mistake 3rd, soon lost place, rallied to chase leaders when hit 7th, weakened 10th, tailed off.
Pulled Up
Edmond
by Video Rock and Galia III (Baraban)
Blundered 1st, close up, hit 5th, outpaced when hampered 16th, tailed off when pulled up 6 out.
Fell
Saxon Duke
by Saxon Farm and Bucks Princess (Buckskin)
Led to 3rd, mistake 6th, weakened after 15th, beaten when fell 18th.
Pulled Up
Mister Muddypaws
by Celtic Cone and Jane’s Daughter (Pitpan)
Mistakes in rear, lost touch 10th, pulled up before 16th.
Fell
Campaign
by Sure Blade and Just Cause (Law Society)
Tracked leaders, close third and going well when fell 16th.
Pulled Up
Riot Leader
by Supreme Leader and Calamity Jane (Never Dwell)
In touch, pulled up before 11th, lame.
Pulled Up
Murt’s Man
by Be My Native and Autumn Queen (Menelek)
Chased leaders until weakened and pulled up before 16th.
This was not the classiest of races for the prize, but the lightly raced NARROW WATER is clearly a very interesting stayer. Although his trainer Ferdy Murphy had been seriously considering the National Hunt Chase for amateur riders at the Festival for him, he is now leaning towards the William Hill Handicap Chase.
"Adrian gets on so well with him, he gives him so much confidence that I would like him aboard at Cheltenham, so I’ve entered him for the William Hill," said trainer Ferdy Murphy.
However, with stamina clearly his strong point, Narrow Water is not certain to be as effective over a mile shorter trip, especially on what is likely to be quicker ground.
Last year’s winner SCOTTON GREEN again ran a blinder but was just outstayed after the last while SEVEN TOWERS travelled much better in first time blinkers, and ran another solid race. These three were a distance clear of the remainder.
CAMPAIGN, who was close up and still going well when he fell at the 16th, looked as though he would have been involved in the finish and is certainly worth another chance.
Top weight EDMOND didn’t jump well after his break, while MURT’S MAN was never really at the races on this very testing ground.
List of Sire’s who produce stayers:
MAZAAD: narrow water
ARDROSS: scotton green
ROSELIER: seven towers
SURE BLADE: campaignList of Sire’s who didn’t produce stayers:
ORCHESTRA: lady of gortmerron
SAXON FARM: saxon duke
BE MY NATIVE: murt’s man[/color:2xdn8v5n]First of all have to say, find this post really interesting. Have been trying out the pedigree link etc..
I was interested in NTDs Rimsky – his pedigree has Sadlers Hall and Top Ville yet he does not stay 4 miles having tried many times – why?Can’t reply to the Rimsky query. Maybe its something to do with Doyoun???
Here are the Sires who have had a 4 mile winner since 2003. I’m a bit surprised by Be My Native. I’ll have to check him out. Because not many sires have more than a couple of winners, it helps explain why it may be necessary to concentrate more on the Dam’s side.
sire name
horse name race date
Ala Hounak
Rheindross 26/06/2005
Alderbrook
Naunton Brook 15/11/2006
Alderbrook
Baron Windrush 17/03/2007
Anshan
Gallik Dawn 02/05/2007
Anshan
Mckelvey 02/07/2006
Arctic Lord
Sir Frosty 01/01/2003
Beaconsfield
Tiumen 11/10/2009
Be My Native
Native Emperor 17/03/2004
Be My Native
Mini Sensation 03/12/2004
Be My Native
Good Step 28/04/2005
Be My Native
Buailtes And Fadas 01/05/2003
Be My Native
Good Step 27/04/2006
Beneficial
G V A Ireland 18/03/2006
Black Monday
Bear On Board 01/01/2004
Broken Hearted
Numbersixvalverde 08/04/2006
Buckskin
Amberleigh House 03/04/2004
Clearly Bust
Silver Birch 14/04/2007
Cyborg
L’Aventure 06/12/2009
Derrylin
County Derry 28/04/2004
Discover D’Auteuil
Poker De Sivola 17/03/2010
Double Trigger
Russian Trigger 14/03/2009
El Conquistador
Deep Quest 05/12/2008
Exattic
No Retreat 27/04/2005
Fleetwood
Fleetfoot Mac 15/03/2007
Garde Royale
Garde Champetre 30/04/2009
Glacial Storm
Gimme Shelter 17/03/2005
Glacial Storm
Gimme Shelter 13/03/2003
Good Thyne
Tyneandthyneagain 21/02/2004
House Rules
Amant Gris 12/10/2008
Jurado
Hello Bud 13/03/2008
Jurado
Hello Bud 18/04/2009
King’s Best
Gidam Gidam 06/02/2010
King’s Ride
King Harald 02/02/2008
Lafontaine
Spot Thedifference 29/04/2004
Lafontaine
Spot Thedifference 26/04/2007
Lear Fan
Maskul 09/10/2005
Lord Americo
Garryvoe 03/02/2007
Mandalus
Paddy For Paddy 27/04/2005
Michelozzo
Run For Paddy 22/04/2006
Miner’s Lamp
Miners Dance 05/12/2003
Minster Son
Rambling Minster 09/12/2007
Mister Lord
Lord Atterbury 30/04/2003
Montelimar
Hedgehunter 09/04/2005
Montelimar
Howaya Pet 28/04/2006
Montelimar
Monty’s Pass 05/04/2003
Motley
Sudden Shock 12/03/2003
Nashwan
Bosham Mill 03/05/2006
Nestor
Grey Abbey 17/04/2004
Nomadic Way
Himalayan Trail 15/03/2008
Old Vic
Comply Or Die 23/02/2008
Old Vic
Comply Or Die 05/04/2008
Old Vic
Don’t Push It 10/04/2010
Oscar
Tricky Trickster 11/03/2009
Passing Sale
Mon Mome 04/04/2009
Phantom Breeze
Iris De Balme 19/04/2008
Pistolet Bleu
Merigo 21/02/2009
Pistolet Bleu
Merigo 17/04/2010
Poliglote
Butler’s Cabin 15/03/2007
Presenting
Present M’Lord 04/12/2009
Rainbows For Life
Sixteen 12/10/2008
Rainbows For Life
Sixteen 14/10/2007
Riverhead
Ryalux 12/04/2003
Robellino
Jass 31/01/2009
Roselier
Ranelagh Gray 01/12/2006
Roselier
A Piece Of Cake 21/03/2003
Roselier
Tipsy Mouse 28/03/2004
Roselier
Bellaney Jewel 03/03/2007
Roselier
Bellaney Jewel 12/03/2009
Saddlers’ Hall
Old Benny 13/03/2008
Sadler’s Wells
Synchronised 20/03/2010
Saint Preuil
Delray Beach 21/11/2007
Samraan
Surface To Air 29/06/2008
Sassanian
Kock De La Vesvre 01/07/2007
Scooter Bleu
Jurancon II 29/06/2003
Simply Great
Simply Smashing 18/03/2010
Strong Gale
Ceanannas Mor 14/11/2003
Supreme Leader
Supreme Breeze 16/11/2005
Supreme Leader
Joes Edge 16/04/2005
Supreme Leader
The Risky Viking 07/12/2007
Tauchsport
Registana 12/10/2003
Tauchsport
Registana 10/10/2004
Teenoso
Iron Express 18/03/2004
Treasure Hunter
Dublin Hunter 30/04/2005
Tremblant
Malek 05/03/2005
Un Desperado
Dead-Eyed Dick 02/12/2005
Un Desperado
Nil Desperandum 24/02/2007
Un Desperado
Philson Run 25/02/2006
Un Desperado
Philson Run 19/03/2005
Weld
Hot Weld 16/03/2006
Weld
Hot Weld 21/04/2007
Witness Box
Take The Stand 27/06/2004
Zaffaran
Oh Jackie 24/04/2008
Zaffaran
Another Rum 17/03/2005
Here is the corresponding list of damsires. The much-maligned Strong Gale is well-represented, though I only recognise one of the names. Didn’t pay too much attention to horseracing earlier this millennium.
damsire name
horse name race date
Accordion
The Risky Viking 07/12/2007
Air De Cour
Merigo 17/04/2010
Air De Cour
Merigo 21/02/2009
Alleged
Don’t Push It 10/04/2010
Almoojid
Surface To Air 29/06/2008
Al Sirat
Amberleigh House 03/04/2004
Arapahos
Lord Atterbury 30/04/2003
Ardross
Rheindross 26/06/2005
Avocat
Grey Abbey 17/04/2004
Bering
Butler’s Cabin 15/03/2007
Blakeney
Baron Windrush 17/03/2007
Bob Back
Synchronised 20/03/2010
Boreen
A Piece Of Cake 21/03/2003
Brave Invader
Garryvoe 03/02/2007
Brush Aside
Present M’Lord 04/12/2009
Buckskin
Joes Edge 16/04/2005
Buckskin
Rambling Minster 09/12/2007
Bulldozer
Oh Jackie 24/04/2008
Bustino
Russian Trigger 14/03/2009
Caerwent
Hedgehunter 09/04/2005
Callernish
Spot Thedifference 29/04/2004
Callernish
Spot Thedifference 26/04/2007
Crash Course
Native Emperor 17/03/2004
Crash Course
Take The Stand 27/06/2004
Cyborg
Iris De Balme 19/04/2008
Damsire Unregistered
Another Rum 17/03/2005
Darantus
Tipsy Mouse 28/03/2004
Deep Run
Philson Run 19/03/2005
Deep Run
Philson Run 25/02/2006
Deep Run
Sir Frosty 01/01/2003
Deep Run
Run For Paddy 22/04/2006
Deep Run
Deep Quest 05/12/2008
Demon Club
Tiumen 11/10/2009
Doon Lad
Himalayan Trail 15/03/2008
Down The Hatch
Dead-Eyed Dick 02/12/2005
Furry Glen
Gimme Shelter 17/03/2005
Furry Glen
Gimme Shelter 13/03/2003
Furry Glen
Comply Or Die 05/04/2008
Furry Glen
Comply Or Die 23/02/2008
Giolla Mear
Buailtes And Fadas 01/05/2003
Giolla Mear
Silver Birch 14/04/2007
Glenstal
Hot Weld 21/04/2007
Glenstal
Hot Weld 16/03/2006
Green Desert
Fleetfoot Mac 15/03/2007
Immer
Registana 12/10/2003
Immer
Registana 10/10/2004
Kambalda
Nil Desperandum 24/02/2007
Kemal
King Harald 02/02/2008
King’s Ride
Ryalux 12/04/2003
King’s Ride
Ranelagh Gray 01/12/2006
Law Society
Poker De Sivola 17/03/2010
Lazer
L’Aventure 06/12/2009
Le Bavard
Mckelvey 02/07/2006
Le Bavard
Numbersixvalverde 08/04/2006
Levanter
Good Step 27/04/2006
Levanter
Good Step 28/04/2005
Lionel
Garde Champetre 30/04/2009
Lucifer
Miners Dance 05/12/2003
Maiymad
Kock De La Vesvre 01/07/2007
Menelek
Ceanannas Mor 14/11/2003
Mill Reef
Bosham Mill 03/05/2006
Monksfield
Monty’s Pass 05/04/2003
Montelimar
Tricky Trickster 11/03/2009
New Target
Mon Mome 04/04/2009
Nikos
Delray Beach 21/11/2007
Niniski
Jass 31/01/2009
Northern Dancer
Maskul 09/10/2005
Olmeto
Jurancon II 29/06/2003
Orchestra
Howaya Pet 28/04/2006
Orchestra
Hello Bud 18/04/2009
Orchestra
Hello Bud 13/03/2008
Over The River
Bear On Board 01/01/2004
Paddy’s Stream
Malek 05/03/2005
Pamroy
Paddy For Paddy 27/04/2005
Radical
Tyneandthyneagain 21/02/2004
Relkino
Gallik Dawn 02/05/2007
Relko
Sudden Shock 12/03/2003
Roscoe Blake
County Derry 28/04/2004
Roselier
Simply Smashing 18/03/2010
Rusticaro
Amant Gris 12/10/2008
Sadler’s Wells
Gidam Gidam 06/02/2010
Strong Gale
G V A Ireland 18/03/2006
Strong Gale
Mini Sensation 03/12/2004
Strong Gale
Dublin Hunter 30/04/2005
Strong Gale
Supreme Breeze 16/11/2005
Supreme Leader
Old Benny 13/03/2008
Tel Quel
Sixteen 12/10/2008
Tel Quel
Sixteen 14/10/2007
The Parson
Bellaney Jewel 03/03/2007
The Parson
Bellaney Jewel 12/03/2009
The Parson
Iron Express 18/03/2004
Thoreau
No Retreat 27/04/2005
True Song
Naunton Brook 15/11/2006
I’ll do a bit of work on this thread on the next Bank Holiday.
Pretty sure that Good Step and Buailtes And Fadas 4m+ wins were in XC races at Punchestown Gerald – generally go a much more sedate gallop early on so seeing out the trip is not neccessarily a requirement for winning.
Yes, Kendal Cavalier has mentioned that Cross-Country races should be excluded because of the (lack of) pace, but as I don’t know which particular race(s) is cross-country, I didn’t set a filter to exclude them.
edit: As mentioned earlier, ain’t gonna do any work on this for a few days. The only 4m+ Cross-Country race is La Touche?
Think so Gerald though the Velka might be classed as being a XC race.
There’s quite a few 3m 7fish XC races too mind.
Just about to start work on this. Won’t do much, as I worked 12 hour shifts over the weekend (boss promised everyone a £100 bonus for doing so), so I’ve got a few other things to cram in today.
Looking at the earlier list, I don’t think it is possible to identify something that will mean such-and-such a horse will become unbeatable beyond 4 miles. Most of the winners have won 2 or less races at the distance, and breeders don’t aim to breed 4m+ chasers, though I suppose a few do try to breed a Grand National winner.
I don’t think we are looking to identify stamina in pedigrees. Instead, I think we are looking for the absence of speed.
Anyway, I’ll get on with the list now, and then do a bit more work on August Bank Holiday.
Winning sires at 32+f, excluding La Touche Cup, since March 2005:-
W-R Strikerate % [/color:21trcfo5] Level Stakes
RTO (+/-%)
1-7 14.3 [/color:21trcfo5] £18.00
271.4
Ala Hounak
2-20 10 [/color:21trcfo5] £4.0020
Alderbrook
2-14 14.3 [/color:21trcfo5] -£3.75-26.8
[/color:21trcfo5] Anshan
2-29 6.9 [/color:21trcfo5] -£16.00-55.2
[/color:21trcfo5] Be My Native
1-1 100 [/color:21trcfo5] £15.001500
Beaconsfield
1-10 10 [/color:21trcfo5] -£4.00-40
[/color:21trcfo5] Beneficial
1-4 25 [/color:21trcfo5] £8.00200
Broken Hearted
1-4 25 [/color:21trcfo5] £30.00750
Clearly Bust
1-15 6.7 [/color:21trcfo5] -£9.00-60
[/color:21trcfo5] Cyborg
1-5 20 [/color:21trcfo5] £10.00200
Discover D’Auteuil
1-1 100 [/color:21trcfo5] £8.00800
Double Trigger
1-1 100 [/color:21trcfo5] £12.001200
El Conquistador
1-1 100 [/color:21trcfo5] £6.50650
Ela-Mana-Mou
1-3 33.3 [/color:21trcfo5] £14.00466.7
Exattic
1-1 100 [/color:21trcfo5] £10.001000
Fleetwood
1-18 5.6 [/color:21trcfo5] -£15.38-85.4
[/color:21trcfo5] Garde Royale
1-18 5.6 [/color:21trcfo5] -£12.50-69.4
[/color:21trcfo5] Glacial Storm
1D-1 100 [/color:21trcfo5] £5.0050
House Rules
1-4 25 [/color:21trcfo5] £5.00125
In The Wings
2-5 40 [/color:21trcfo5] £11.25225
Jurado
1-5 250 [/color:21trcfo5] £12.00240
King’s Best
1-13 7.7 [/color:21trcfo5] £2.0015.4
King’s Ride
1-3 33.3 [/color:21trcfo5] -£0.25-8.3
[/color:21trcfo5] Lafontaine
1-2 50 [/color:21trcfo5] ??
Lear Fan
1-24 4.2 [/color:21trcfo5] -£17.50-72.9
[/color:21trcfo5] Lord Americo
1-10 10 [/color:21trcfo5] -£7.38-73.8
[/color:21trcfo5] Lute Antique
1-4 25 [/color:21trcfo5] £1.0025
Mandalus
1-5 20 [/color:21trcfo5] £29.00580
Michelozzo
1-12 8.3 [/color:21trcfo5] £14.00116.7
Minster Son
2-17 11.8 [/color:21trcfo5] £8.0047.1
Montelimar
1-2 50 [/color:21trcfo5] £1.5075
Nashwan
1-4 25 [/color:21trcfo5] £13.00325
Nomadic Way
3-32 9.4 [/color:21trcfo5] -£1.00-3.1
[/color:21trcfo5] Old Vic
1-11 9.1 [/color:21trcfo5] £1.009.1
Oscar
1-8 12.5 [/color:21trcfo5] £93.001162.5
Passing Sale
1-5 20 [/color:21trcfo5] £1.0020
Petoski
1-3 33.3 [/color:21trcfo5] £64.002133.3
Phantom Breeze
2-9 22.2 [/color:21trcfo5] £16.00177.8
Pistolet Bleu
1-3 33.3 [/color:21trcfo5] £31.001033.3
Poliglote
1-31 3.2 [/color:21trcfo5] -£22.00-71
[/color:21trcfo5] Presenting
2-5 40 [/color:21trcfo5] ??
Rainbows For Life
1-8 12.5 [/color:21trcfo5] -£1.00-12.5
[/color:21trcfo5] Robellino
3-51 5.9 [/color:21trcfo5] -£33.00-64.7
[/color:21trcfo5] Roselier
2-12 16.7 [/color:21trcfo5] £9.2076.7
Saddlers’ Hall
1-4 25 [/color:21trcfo5] £4.50112.5
Sadler’s Wells
1-9 11.1 [/color:21trcfo5] -£5.50-61.1
[/color:21trcfo5] Saint Preuil
1-1 100 [/color:21trcfo5] £10.001000
Samraan
1-5 20 [/color:21trcfo5] £1.0020
Sassanian
1-4 25 [/color:21trcfo5] £2.0050
Simply Great
3-38 7.9 [/color:21trcfo5] £3.007.9
Supreme Leader
1-4 25 [/color:21trcfo5] £5.00125
Treasure Hunter
1-3 33.3 [/color:21trcfo5] £5.00166.7
Tremblant
4-31 12.9 [/color:21trcfo5] £19.0061.3
Un Desperado
2-3 66.7 [/color:21trcfo5] £46.001533.3
Weld
2-20 10 [/color:21trcfo5] £47.00235
Zaffaran
Seems that the search for a sire or sires to follow regardless is a bit fruitless. As Gingertipster would point out, add a winner, or take one away, and it makes quite a bit of difference. For example, Presenting has had 3 seconds at 15/2, 25/1 and 33/1, and if either of the latter two had won it would make stats look different.
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