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I am absolutely not a whip abolitionist but I was very surprised that there has been no comment (apart from Trading Post describing it as "power-packed") about the ride Jimmy Fortune gave the winner of the two-year-old event at Ascot on Wednesday. On a horse having only his second run, Fortune initially hit him once right-handed then switched his whip and proceeded to administer six pretty brutal blows with his left hand, his whip arm raised every time well above shoulder height. Fortune is a pretty regular offender in this respect. What has happened to the "rule" that jockeys aren’t to raise their whip hand above shoulder height?
I don’t think this sort of experience does young horses any good in the longer term.
I suppose Gus the reason you got no replies to your thread is that most punters on this forum wouldn’t mind if Jockeys used cat o nine tails as long as their horse got home in front. Personally myself I hate to see horses get beaten up for no reason, but I certainly like certain Jockeys ahead of others in a drive to the line, and Jimmy Fortune falls into that bracket, throw in Chris Catlin, Seb Sanders, Neil Callan and a few more.<br>But getting back to your original point. The stewards are certainly not consistent with their enforcement of the rules even if I dont agree with them, for instance Kieran Fallon is forever using his whip above shoulder height and he also uses the whip down the shoulder frequently which is also against the rules (maybe that stare on panorama has all the stewards running scared of Fallon), so I suppose if as you say Fortune was using his whip above his shoulder then he was technically gaining an advantage over other Jockeys who were abiding by the rules ?.
I suggest you remove the opening sentence from your last post, madman, as such a generalisation is as naive as it is ridiculous.
Quote: from LetsGetRacing on 8:45 pm on May 7, 2007[br]I suggest you remove the opening sentence from your last post, madman, as such a generalisation is as naive as it is ridiculous.
Lester Piggott is generally thought to be the greatest flat jockey ever, didn’t hear anyone complaining back then after he gave another one of his famous machine gun finishes after administering about twenty hard smacks before that. Interesting to see would he have been as succesful today with the stricter whip rules somehow I doubt it.<br>I know the way most punters think letsgo, Hence the popularity of Fallon if its brute force you want then Kieran is your man.
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Quote: from LetsGetRacing on 8:45 pm on May 7, 2007[br]I suggest you remove the opening sentence from your last post, madman, as such a generalisation is as naive as it is ridiculous.<br>
Madman
I suggest you remove both your posts altogether, as they are the most uninformed and prejudiced garbage I have seen on here in a long while :o
Whatever your opinion, trainers the calibre of Vincent O’Brien, Noel Murless, Henry Cecil, Aiden O’Brien, Michael Stoute, etc. certainly didn’t see it your way, and to sugggest that was owed to their fondness for the whip completely ignores the horsemanship of two of the finest talents to grace the sport in the past half century.<br>By all means go off on one if you understand what you’re talking about, but to spout such tripe, when you don’t even understand the basic whip rules, exposes you as the ignoramus you patently are.
(Edited by reet hard at 11:13 pm on May 7, 2007)
Quote: from madman marz on 8:59 pm on May 7, 2007[br]Hence the popularity of Fallon if its brute force you want then Kieran is your man.
I’d put Fallon some way ahead of Fortune, MM. He’s very strong but there’s a lot more to him than brute force alone. Fortune on the other hand seems to have only one weapon in his armoury. As I’ve said, I am emphatically not anti-whip but I don’t like the way Jimmy Fortune rides and his treatment of this particular two-year-old was unedifying.
Quote: from reet hard on 11:12 pm on May 7, 20
Alright reet you may enlighten this ignoramous what the whip rules are, I for one know you cant use the whip above the shoulder full stop, or down the shoulder in the forearm position, which Fallon is guilty of both these on a regular basis. Goes unpunished everytime.
As for my criticism of your beloved Kieran, I think there are far superior horsemen out there who keep their horse straight and balanced when driving to the line, while they might not be as forceful with the whip as Fallon, their horses dont roll around the place and get unbalanced, as a lot of Fallons mounts do when he is in the drive position, examples Ad Valorem, Yeats coming into the straight in the gold cup and virtually everytime he rode George Washington and believe me Reet they are hundreds of more examples of horses ridden by Fallon rolling all over the place.<br>Frankie Dettori is probably the best horseman riding today always keeps his horses straight and through and while not weak in a finish wouldnt be as powerful as Fallon (then again he uses his whip within the rules, "well when riding in Britain anyway"). <br>While Pat Eddery had his own unique drive his abilty and horsemanship was second to none. Lord Oaksey once said he doesnt know how Pat could remain in the saddle let alone keep his horse running straight as a gun barrell, thought he was the best horseman he had ever seen.<br>Then again Reet who am I to argue with all those top trainers, but dont tell me strenght in the saddle doesnt come into it, witness Jimmy Fortune top Jock for gosden and riding for numerous other top trainers. Well if as Gus says Jimmy has only one weapon in his armoury, his one weapon is fairly popular among the training elite.
Quote Madman Marz<br>I suppose Gus the reason you got no replies to your thread is that most punters on this forum wouldn’t mind if Jockeys used cat o nine tails as long as their horse got home in front. <br>………………………………………………………………………….
<br>Madman did you do a straw poll?<br>Maybe you could do a thread (with a vote poll) where you asked everyone the question.<br>Methinks yours is a sweeping statement devoid of any substance and worthy of your Moniker.<br>
Re Fallon’s horses not keeping straight……………I think quite often the moving off a straight line was a deliberate ploy by Fallon to intimate the other horse/rider.
As for Dettori, anyone who saw his ride on Swain in the Breeder’s Cup would argue with you about his use of the whip and the ability to keep a horse going straight.
Colin
Gus, who was the trainer of the 2-y-o who Fortune abused?
It will be interesting to see if that trainer uses that jockey in future.
The word "Punters" Sam. Appreciate there is people who use this forum who never even have a bet, are involved in the business (sport) in some form or other, and would find my cat o nine tails statement as hurtful. Its only a figure of speech and I will stick by it where Punters are concerned, the smacking of a horse doesn’t cause most punters any bleeding from the heart, in fact a punter would be screaming blue murder if the Jockey didn’t hit his horse enough. As I have said before, hence the almost sycophantic popularity of Fallon the Enforcer by hacks and punters alike.
Quote: from seabird on 10:24 am on May 8, 2007[br]Re Fallon’s horses not keeping straight……………I think quite often the moving off a straight line was a deliberate ploy by Fallon to intimate the other horse/rider.
As for Dettori, anyone who saw his ride on Swain in the Breeder’s Cup would argue with you about his use of the whip and the ability to keep a horse going straight.
Colin<br>
More sycophancy from a Fallon fan. Excusing bad horsemanship, intimidation my ar-e Seabird.
As for Swain and Dettori, ok yes the horse did run off a through line, but its rare from Dettori, and it just so happens it was a high profile race which will ever remain in peoples memories.
Madman, <br>you cant put people into brackets to suit your opinion.<br>Off course you can, as you did!!<br>I consisder myself to be a punter among many other things but I would prefer people not to tell me what I think…..<br>
MM,
I can’t understand what your point is? Your saying that you don’t mind if your jockey is strong in a finish and uses the whip, then your arguing what? That Fallon is too agressive? Overuse of the whip should be banned? Dettori’s the best jockey out there? You prefer fortune, callan and catlin to Fallon?!? People love Fallon? I don’t get you mate.
You’ve been moaning about race fixing and scandals, then you decide to say that we’re all moaning and don’t care less if a horse gets beaten senseless? Nonsense. Everyone just wants a fair crack of the whip ;) :cool:
Quote: from seabird on 10:25 am on May 8, 2007[br]Gus, who was the trainer of the 2-y-o who Fortune abused?
It will be interesting to see if that trainer uses that jockey in future.<br>
<br>Jamie Osborne
Quote: from Aragorn on 11:16 am on May 8, 2007[br]MM,
I can’t understand what your point is? Your saying that you don’t mind if your jockey is strong in a finish and uses the whip, then your arguing what? That Fallon is too agressive? Overuse of the whip should be banned? Dettori’s the best jockey out there? You prefer fortune, callan and catlin to Fallon?!? People love Fallon? I don’t get you mate.
You’ve been moaning about race fixing and scandals, then you decide to say that we’re all moaning and don’t care less if a horse gets beaten senseless? Nonsense. Everyone just wants a fair crack of the whip ;) :cool: <br>
Granted Aragorn its probably all a little confusing so I will try and put some sense to proceedings.
First off in my original post on this thread I said I didnt agree with the current whip rules, well compared to other countries there too strict (which makes me one of those punters you thought I was giving out about, I was giving a point of view most punters feel regarding the whip). But the rules are there so they have to be obeyed Yes ? the stewards seem to pick on journey man jockeys for breaking the rules yet Fallon has been getting away scott free for years. If other top jockeys abide by the rules and Fallon consistently uses his whip over shoulder high he is obviously gaining an advantage over his fellow competitors, is he not ??. Fallon has a habit of using his whip down the horses shoulder in the forearm position witness Dylan Thomas Irish Champion stakes. As you gathered I am not of one of those sycophants who thinks Fallon is some sort of god, when plenty of other Jockeys can do the same job and better and stay within the rules of racing. Basically hacks and Punters ignore Fallons many faults ie unable to keep horses running straight as long as he rides one of his power packed finishes and the hacks start drooling and frothing from the mouth, "that was vintage Fallon", "Claude Duval and James willoughby eat your heart out". It gets tedious after awhile when similar rides happen every day from other jockeys but only Kierans are vintage rides "spare me". Agreed some Jockeys often make the difference in a tight finish but most of the time the best horse wins "for heavens sake even Kristin Stubbs rides winners".<br>As for Dettori I think he is the best horseman around, while not as strong in a finish as the said Fallon, Fortune, Catlin and Callan.
This may sound like an anti Fallon rant, but in fact its mostly an anti sycophant rant. WHICH HORSE RACING IS FULL OFF.
"The sycophantic slags all say I knew him first and I knew him well"<br>
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