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Reserves for Royal Ascot H’caps :shock:

Home Forums Horse Racing Reserves for Royal Ascot H’caps :shock:

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  • #11487
    Gerald
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    • Total Posts 4293

    This is the story.

    Royal Ascot handicaps to have three reserves
    By Jon Lees5.12PM 24 MAY 2009

    EVERY handicap at Royal Ascot next month will allow for the inclusion of reserves for the first time this year, under a deal brokered between the Horsemen’s Group and the racecourse.

    The system, under which three reserves will be allocated for each handicap, replaces the on-the-day criteria that applied to the Britannia, Buckingham Palace and Duke of Edinburgh Handicaps last year, but was scrapped because bookmakers and the BHA found it was not levy-friendly.

    Ascot PR director Nick Smith said: "By allowing reserves until 24 hours before the race it enables all fields to be finalised and appear in the following day’s newspapers."

    Never particularly noticed that non-runners were a problem at Royal Ascot.

    I’ve started this post without working out what I want to say, so there’s going to be a bit of thinking out loud.

    Okay, say the bookies start offering prices after the "final" 48 hour declaration stage. Non-runner, no bet.

    If someone has a bet on a horse that is a non-runner, they want their money back.

    Consequently, there will be be some kind of Rule 4????????

    However, the withdrawal will be replaced by another horse.

    As the bookies will be recuperated by money being placed on this horse, then I suppose that actually there won’t be a Rule 4.

    A punter could take a price between the 48 hour and 24 hour stage, but find that an outsider is replaced by a live contender, leading to the price on the horse they have had a bet on drifting.

    Suppose this is okay if you get Best Odds Guaranteed. (See graemethedonkey for details.)

    I’m never in favour of change, unless it is me that is advocating it. I can’t really see that there is a problem if a race that has 28 declared ends up with only 23, 24 or 25 running.

    Surely there are other issues the Horsemen’s Group should be addressing?

    As we’re mainly punters here, I suppose we’re all slightly miffed that the Horsemen’s group has a major say in this issue, and that presumably neither bookies nor punters are represented on it.

    edit: surely, if they’re doing this, they might as well reintroduce 24 hour declarations instead of 48 hour declarations for these races????????

    #229979
    yeats
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    edit: surely, if they’re doing this, they might as well reintroduce 24 hour declarations instead of 48 hour declarations for these races????????

    Correct, thought the idea of 48 hour decs was to give the overseas market the opportunity to bet on our races with the final decs, now some might sneak in at the overnight stage, if the ground changes there could be quite a few.
    I don’t believe 48 hours or is it 52 is neccesary in this day and age and would be interested to know how much racing is losing from punters having backed all the non runners caused by them.
    You’ve got to question whether the people making these decisions know what they’re talking about, regarding the previous farce of having reserves on the day for 3 handicaps at Royal Ascot, Paul Dixon stated that the 3 races were chosen because ante-post betting was not a factor for them.
    Ante-post betting is not a factor for any race with reserves, it’s the day of the race market that it concerns.

    #230029
    carvillshill
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    I am 100% sure that this is a) A very bad decision and b) Guaranteed to cause punting chaos. Typical BHA decisionmaking, all about the owners and trainers, no regard for punters. If they haven’t learnt their lesson about reserves by now God help them.

    #230067
    Adrian
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    • Total Posts 1041

    This is no different from many races around the world, especially Ireland, and has already been in place successfully for the Shergar Cup

    At the 48 hour stage you get declarations and reserves which can then be sent to the press – including all overseas betting outlets.

    That way they can prepare the cards, form etc. for distribution.

    At the 24 hour stage they could get a few withdrawals with extra horses being brought in to repace them. The overseas punters – who don’t bet ante-post – will not be fazed because they will know the exact runners when they start betting.

    Bookmakers will have to advertise their own terms for ante-post betting on these races. I’d have thought though it is possible that these races would be day of race betting only.

    Most importantly it gives the owners of these reserve horses the most amount of time to get a run in these valuable races.

    #230070
    carvillshill
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    Day of race betting only for the Hunt Cup and the Wokingham? Madness.

    #230074
    Gerald
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    • Total Posts 4293

    I think the problem might be a sociological one.

    Who are the kind of people on the Horsemen’s Group?

    Obviously, the really top-notch owners, breeders and trainers won’t deign to give up their time or sully themselves in the messy business of cttees.

    Therefore, it will be stuffed full of respected people from the second tier. These will be the people who own, train, or breed a fair few number of horses, but they are just below top class.

    Therefore, they are they people who often will have horses that don’t quite get into the big h’caps.

    This is therefore perceived as an important problem by them.

    I am sure it is not perceived as a problem by bookmakers or punters. Will it really affect turnover if there are only 25 horses running in a major handicap, instead of 28?

    #230083
    Irish Stamp
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    • Total Posts 3177

    Just do what at least one firm does – if the reserve wins then you pay out on the second as the winner, fifth as placed etc.

    #230095
    Adrian
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    Sorry Carvills – didn’t notice it applied to all handicaps and not just the three mentioned.

    #230114
    Tuffers
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    • Total Posts 1402

    Surely this is no different to the Grand National?

    #230117
    Gerald
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    • Total Posts 4293

    Yes, to make clear, this doesn’t really affect the ante-post market, or in the last 24 hours – it is just in the 48 hour to 24 hour stage that people might be put off, and the people being affected are the keen, but cautious punters.

    #230143
    Gingertipster
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    When I saw the title of this thread I thought I was going to be dead against it.

    But, with it being 24 hours and not morning of race (any earlier) or something, can’t see much of a problem.

    Don’t know about other ante-post gamblers but when I bet AP I don’t work it out looking at the usual 100% tissue. Instead judge each runner against what is generally needed to win that race. Can see I won’t want to bet AP between say 72 hours and 24 hours before racing; but that’s o.k. with me.

    When working out the day of race betting, will just have to wait to do the 100% book after the 24 hrs deadline. Not that I will be interested in many handicaps at Royal Ascot, the Conditions races are hard enough.

    Mark

    Value Is Everything
    #230215
    carvillshill
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    • Total Posts 2778

    It still creates too much uncertainty. Often in races like the Hunt Cup you have a well-handicapped improver right on the cut line trying to get in. At the moment you can have a fair idea if it’ll get a run. Now you will have to factor in this reserve nonsense into the equation and the whole betting shape of the race could change 24 hours before. Also, horses likely to miss the cut might be doubly entered and take up their second preference if they miss out, buggering up the market in that race also. I find it hard to credit that any punter could be in favour of this, in fact I thought it had a probability of about 4.3%.

    #230247
    yeats
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    • Total Posts 3136

    It still creates too much uncertainty. Often in races like the Hunt Cup you have a well-handicapped improver right on the cut line trying to get in. At the moment you can have a fair idea if it’ll get a run. Now you will have to factor in this reserve nonsense into the equation and the whole betting shape of the race could change 24 hours before. Also, horses likely to miss the cut might be doubly entered and take up their second preference if they miss out, buggering up the market in that race also. I find it hard to credit that any punter could be in favour of this, in fact I thought it had a probability of about 4.3%.

    Totally agree, what is the point of having 48 hour decs for the dubious benefit of the overseas market if the horses aren’t the final field and some different ones come in at the overnight stage? May as well have 24 hour decs and remove the uncertainty and no reserves.
    Time they put British punters first not overseas ones, I’d like to know how much racing is making from these 48 hour decs and how much it is losing from punters backing the hundreds of non runners?

    #230251
    % MAN
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    • Total Posts 5104

    Quite frankly I cannot see what all the fuss is about – if it helps get as many runners as possible in the race then it should be applauded.

    Why should connections of runners near the cut-off point in a major handicap be denied a run if there is a possibility getting their horse in teh race?

    Or are people suggesting the so called "rights" of punters are more important?

    You will know which of the runners is the reserve so if you don’t fancy any of the reserves, then how will it impact what you want to bet anyway? If the race has been priced up you can factor in any potential R4 deductions if you feel that is a significant issue.

    If you do fancy one of the reserves then you can either back it NRNB at the 48 hour stage or if it really is such a big issue then don’t bother placing your bet until the 24 hour stage when you know what is going to be finally declared.

    #230254
    yeats
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    Quite frankly I cannot see what all the fuss is about – if it helps get as many runners as possible in the race then it should be applauded.

    That would occur with 24 hour decs, have you a good reason for 48 hour ones?

    Why should connections of runners near the cut-off point in a major handicap be denied a run if there is a possibility getting their horse in teh race?

    They would not with 24 hour decs would they?

    Or are people suggesting the so called "rights" of punters are more important?

    Aren’t 48 hour decs for the benefit or "rights" of the overseas punters?

    You will know which of the runners is the reserve so if you don’t fancy any of the reserves, then how will it impact what you want to bet anyway? If the race has been priced up you can factor in any potential R4 deductions if you feel that is a significant issue.

    If you do fancy one of the reserves then you can either back it NRNB at the 48 hour stage or if it really is such a big issue then don’t bother placing your bet until the 24 hour stage when you know what is going to be finally declared.

    Lots of not "genned" up punters don’t want that nonsense when placing a bet. as CarvillsHill pointed out you have the doubly declared nonsense that buggers things up as well.

    It might help if you read what’s previously been written Paul :D

    #230256
    % MAN
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    It might help if you read what’s previously been written Paul :D

    I have read all that has been written in this thread and most of it just sounds like the usual protestations from whinging punters who think the whole sport should revolve around their needs and their needs alone :)

    As for the "not genned up" punters – i have no sympathy for them whatsoever – do they expect to be spoon fed?

    #230274
    Gerald
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    • Total Posts 4293

    I’m thinking that if a horse is withdrawn at the 24 hour stage, and is replaced with a reserve, then there won’t be a Rule 4 on bets placed at the 48 hour stage, as the non-runner has been replaced by another runner.

    Am I correct to think that?

    If that is the case, say there are 4 withdrawals, and 3 replacements. Is a replacement a straight swop for one of the withdrawals? If that is the case, presumably there should be a Rule 4 on the horse that didn’t have a replacement.

    However, if there isn’t a straight one-for-one swop, on what basis is it decided which horse counts for R4 purposes?

    AND BY THE WAY PAUL – I DO THINK THE CONCERNS OF PUNTERS SOULD BE PUT ABOVE THOSE OF OWNERS, PARTICULARLY IN THIS CASE, WHERE THE HORSE WASN’T GOOD ENOUGH TO GET INTO THE RACE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    Gerald

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