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Evening Crusty,
As Paul has just pointed out, you are both incorrect and unfair with your criticism of Malcolm; Channel 4 take the ATR feed and have done for ages on Saturdays. Surely if you want to slate anyone, it should be C4 for throwing to the commentary early and/or Thommo for not realizing the potential. Im sure your apology to Malcolm will be heart felt.Sorry that commentary at Doncaster didnt meet your high standards. Im assuming it was Eradicate’s race you are refering to. It would be useful to know what, apart from "reverting to shouting and bellowing,"you would have enjoyed hearing during that race. A list of the horses he beat in the Swinton? Hendersons strike rate in Yorkshire based novice chases?
You are correct about David; an engaging,emerging talent.
Evening Crusty,
As Paul has just pointed out, you are both incorrect and unfair with your criticism of Malcolm; Channel 4 take the ATR feed and have done for ages on Saturdays. Surely if you want to slate anyone, it should be C4 for throwing to the commentary early and/or Thommo for not realizing the potential. Im sure your apology to Malcolm will be heart felt.Sorry that commentary at Doncaster didnt meet your high standards. Im assuming it was Eradicate’s race you are refering to. It would be useful to know what, apart from "reverting to shouting and bellowing,"you would have enjoyed hearing during that race. A list of the horses he beat in the Swinton? Hendersons strike rate in Yorkshire based novice chases?
You are correct about David; an engaging,emerging talent.
John
Thanks very much. I am impressed that you have taken the time to make some comments.
As I have mentioned, I cannot for the life of me see why Channel 4 try to give the bogus impression that they are handing over to their own commentator, when really it is the course commentary via the At The Races feed.
Tommo did his grand handover to Malcolm Tomlinson at Newcastle, trying to fool viewers into thinking Channel 4 had their own commentator there, when it seems apparent, from what you and Paul have said, that Malcolm Tomlinson would not even have been able to hear this.
It seems ridiculous of Channel 4 to do this. We don’t mind that the commentator is not Channel 4’s own. It’s the pretending that it is that is laughable, especially as it is clear that this is inadvertently causing unfair criticism of the commentator involved on occasions such as this. It’s undoubtedly Channel 4’s fault, not that of the commentator.
It seems very unfortunate that Tommo was making his big-build-up, supposedly personal link to Malcolm Tomlinson just as “Gordie” was obviously doing the same thing for the At The Races coverage. It seems incredible that there is not some co-ordination of efforts if Channel 4 want to do this. You would think that they would liaise with At The Races so that there was some vehicle for doing a personal handover, if that’s what they want and the impression they want to give.
The average ordinary Channel 4 viewer, not familiar with the way things work in the TV and racing industries, would have no inkling that these hearty Channel 4 hand-overs are not bona fide. I don’t think many would realise that the course commentator, in such situations, would not even be able to hear the Channel 4 handover to him. It seems ludicrous.
I have inadvertently done a grave disservice to Malcolm Tomlinson and am pleased to have the opportunity to apologise to him. It’s Channel 4’s fault that the situation has arisen for trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes and pretend that their own man is in place. As I say, we know that Channel 4 has had to make considerable financial savings and has cut back on its own no doubt expensive use of more than one race commentator. Indeed, it seems to be the exception, rather than the rule, except for the biggest meetings, for it to use its own commentator instead of taking the course commentary via At The Races or Racing UK.
For Flat racing Channel 4 coverage, Mike Cattermole and Emma Spencer often cheerily chip in with: “Let’s say a very good afternoon to our race commentator, Richard Hoiles” when it is clearly, on nearly every occasion, the course commentary via the At The Races or Racing UK feeds. It’s laughable because, if the commentator really cannot even hear the Channel 4 link, he cannot reply by thanking them or wishing them a very good afternoon in return, let alone the viewers.
Cattermole should know better, as a course commentator himself, as he clearly knows how it works. Any viewer who notices this lack of a cheery response will probably think: “That’s rude. He’s not even thanked him or her and hasn’t wished him or her a very good afternoon in return.” Again, it reflects badly on the course commentator, all through Channel 4’s insistence on trying to give the wrong impression that they are handing over to their own commentator. As I say, we really don’t mind that it is the course commentary.
In my mitigation, there have been a few occasions when the course commentator HAS thanked the Channel 4 host by name. At Ascot recently, Richard Hoiles thanked Tommo by name and, again, to give the impression that he was the official Channel 4 commentator, not the course commentator, said “Thanks, Derek” and enthused for a few sentences about the upcoming TV action. The waters have been muddied by this as it was definitely the course commentary that was later heard from Richard Hoiles. As always at Ascot when Channel 4 take the course commentary via At The Races, you can hear the annoying echoing of the same course commentary in the background (presumably caused by the design and vast size of the Ascot grandstand).
People could be forgiven for thinking that it was a similar situation at Newcastle yesterday but by the “Thanks, Gordie” response from Malcolm Tomlinson that Channel 4 viewers heard after Tommo’s handover, the cat was let out of the bag. Clearly not Malcolm Tomlinson’s fault, as is now plain. There have been a few other occasions when the course commentator has thanked the Channel 4 host by name so presumably some arrangement has been made with At The Races or whoever. Presumably, at Ascot, because the handover was made earlier than usual to Richard Hoiles, an arrangement was made for him to say a few words exclusively for Channel 4 viewers before the At The Races host linked to him for their coverage. Either that or Richard Hoiles was given a Channel 4 microphone to use for that brief exchange before he was needed for the At The Races handover.
Either way, the same obviously wasn’t done for Malcolm Tomlinson, who has been unnecessarily subjected to the wrong impression that he was at fault. Perhaps someone should raise what has happened yesterday and on other occasions with Channel 4 so that they tighten up their procedures to avoid causing unnecessary embarrassment to course commentators. As I say, it’s all because Channel 4 insist on trying to hoodwink the viewers into thinking the hosts are handing over to their own commentator.
The three-horse Doncaster race I was referring to was the Eradicate race. I always think there is scope in such races to sprinkle in a few extra bits of information to enhance the enjoyment of what can otherwise be a boring listening experience for the racegoer or viewer. Several commentators, including David Fitzgerald and Tommo, would have mentioned little bits of information without going over the top.
You mentioned the jockey Adam Pogson but not a lot else apart from the names of the horses. Since you ask what extra bits could have been included in the commentary, examples of what David Fitzgerald and Tommo do, and no doubt would have done on this occasion, would be to mention the number of times the horses have won if appropriate, the course where their most recent victory was if appropriate, the ages if appropriate of the horses, mention of the topweight if appropriate, the number of wins the three jockeys have had so far this season, the names of the trainers and certainly regular mentions of all three jockeys, without going overboard and, I stress, striking the right balance.
David Fitzgerald has been on the rota for less than a year and has rightly been praised by you and others on this forum. It’s not just me who appreciates it when a commentator goes the extra mile and adds in a few extra bits to spice up what otherwise would be a dull commentary in a three-runner, slowly-run race when no doubt the commentator is struggling for something to say instead of long pauses and giving the perhaps wrong impression of a can’t-be-bothered attitude.
One of the forum’s esteemed senior contributors, Jeremy Grayson, has on a couple of occasions on different threads praised Richard Hoiles for the commentary he gave on a race in which there were hardly any runners but in which he still made the effort to add in a few interesting nuggets. It was the famous “and already the bottom of the barrel has been reached” commentary. People seem to appreciate it when a commentator does a bit of homework for the benefit of the listening public in appropriate races.
Certainly, a few years ago, commentators were regularly slagged off by betting-motivated punters for adding in extra bits of information. These people claimed, wrongly in my opinion, that such padding was unnecessary because all a punter wanted to know was who was leading and who was behind the leader. I suppose, as a commentator, you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. It’s personal preference. There’s probably no right or wrong. It’s a case of striking the right balance. What pleases some infuriates others.
One of your finest course commentaries was, ironically, again at Doncaster when you did an excellent job on a novelty race in which, throughout, you very commendably named the celebrity riders in virtually every mention of the horses from start to finish. I still remember your very good commentary and remember thinking at the time: “There, he can do it. Why can’t he take that approach in all his commentaries?”
Obviously, I realise it was a special novelty race in which there was added extra interest in the jockeys and I’m not suggesting that it would be appropriate for other races. It was good to hear, on that occasion, however, and I just think that, in a three-horse race, there ought to be scope for a similar approach, at least in regularly mentioning all three jockeys, if nothing else.
The Irish commentator Des Scahill is regularly slated on this forum, not by me, but I like it when he nearly always mentions the jockeys from first to last, even in big fields, at least once in longer Flat races and over the jumps.
The “shouting and bellowing” reference in my earlier post was prompted in part by an interview with you or one of your online articles in which you seemed to admit you had a tendency in bigger races for the radio to get a bit over-excited and loud at the end of major races. I certainly wouldn’t criticise anyone for that. It’s certainly better than not making enough effort, in my book. Your radio commentaries, including at the Cheltenham Festival, are excellent and have been rightly widely praised. Certainly, I don’t advocate shouting and bellowing in minor, bread-and-butter, small-field races.
Thanks very much for inviting comments from me. I hope the case for the defence contains at least a few fair points.[
Regarding using Simon at Newbury that did seem a bit perverse as Richard was the course commentator and one of the C4 team, although I still do not see the need to have a dedicated C4 commentator – the only difference it seems to make it the ability to find out what the "expert" thinks mid-race, a practice I hate with a vengeance.
Im glad someone thinks the same. C4 say they are struggling for money yet continue to employ their own commentator. This practice is old hat. I read once on the BHA website that "all commentators should be suitable for all courses". No reason why this cant be adopted for C4. Ive never understood how Mike Cattermole can present for C4 yet when it comes to the Chelt Festival, which he tends to call these days, he isnt used!!
CrustyPatch
I think you were unfair regards John Hunt, I have had him in the top 3 commentators for a number of years and it is rare for him to make an error. In fact off the top of my head the only time I can recall him making a serious mistake is when I think he called the same horse falling twice that didn’t fall at Aintree but even then there were extenuating circumstances.
As for Tommo that hand over is par for the course, there are plenty of examples in the past, if he was a horse he would probably classed as ungenuine and gelded.
Think Alan Howes is good, very accurate with a nice sounding voice which shouldn’t be underestimated in a commentator, Simon Holt has a very good voice for commentating.
Can think of one or two whose voice really grates especially when they raise the volume (not Mark Johnson)
Malcolm Tomlinson seems a nice chap but don’t rate him too highly as a commentator.CrustyPatch
I think you were unfair regards John Hunt, I have had him in the top 3 commentators for a number of years and it is rare for him to make an error. In fact off the top of my head the only time I can recall him making a serious mistake is when I think he called the same horse falling twice that didn’t fall at Aintree but even then there were extenuating circumstances.
As for Tommo that hand over is par for the course, there are plenty of examples in the past, if he was a horse he would probably classed as ungenuine and gelded.
Malcolm Tomlinson seems a nice chap but don’t rate him too highly as a commentator.Eddie — I agree with you that John Hunt is a very accurate commentator. He is also versatile in that he can turn his hand to in-front-of-camera presenting and interviewing.
I once saw him many years ago sharing on-course presenting duties with Emma Spencer at Beverley, long before her present on-screen Channel 4 partnership with Mr Smooth himself, Mike Cattermole. Since then, John Hunt deserves warm praise, as we approach the frighteningly real possibility of a double-dip recession, for the years of job security and employment he has given to many hundreds of hair gel manufacturers and distributors.
As I have mentioned before, Emma caused amazement to me that day for having the smallest bum and thinnest legs I have ever seen on a woman. The last time I saw legs as slender as that, they were on a flamingo.
Am looking forward to seeing if there are any more Channel 4 clangers on the way on Saturday when we hear the Aintree course commentary of Richard Hoiles. Let’s hope Tommo or whoever hands over doesn’t wish a very good afternoon to Richard without prior arrangement because, from what I have been told about the commentators not even hearing the cheery handovers, there won’t be much of a gracious reply.
Agree with you about Malcolm Tomlinson. The last time I looked at his not-too-impressive website, he was boasting about being a Channel 4 commentator. In view of the "Thanks, Gordie" incident with Tommo at Newcastle on Saturday, it seems a bit ironic or, in thespian Tomlinson’s case, rich in dramatic irony.
If Channel 4 end up taking any of the Wetherby races at the last minute on Saturday for Scoop 6 purposes, Tomlinson is listed as being the course commentator, unless it has been changed.
I read in his Racing Post seven-day-diary interview a while ago that he is a great friend of Mike Cattermole and stayed with him during a journey down south when they both went, I seem to remember, to see Tomlinson’s actress daughter Eleanor in action in a theatre production. Let’s hope both of them "sat tight", as a lot of jockeys seem to do in Tomlinson’s commentaries.
Hope Malcolm, or "Malky T", as the late commentator and William Hill presenter Doug Fraser used to call him, didn’t regale the audience with one of his Jim McGrath-imitation-style race commentaries during the production.Evening Crusty,
Sorry that commentary at Doncaster didnt meet your high standards. Im assuming it was Eradicate’s race you are refering to. It would be useful to know what, apart from "reverting to shouting and bellowing,"you would have enjoyed hearing during that race. A list of the horses he beat in the Swinton? Hendersons strike rate in Yorkshire based novice chases?In the space of about 20 minutes, I watched a three-horse race at Folkestone and a four-horse race at Ffos Las today.
Jim McGrath managed to provide a good commentary on the Folkestone race, making the effort to report twice on the condition of jockey David Bass, who fell on the odds-on favourite. It was obviously quite difficult for him to see what was happening but that didn’t stop him. He even gave an update on Bass just as the other two were passing the line. He certainly made the effort.
John Hunt wouldn’t even have mentioned the jockey and certainly would have ignored his plight on the deck.
The race was won by Tony McCoy aboard Temple Lord. Jim mentioned all the jockeys and turned the commentary into quite an interesting one.
A short while later, Martin Harris did his useful solid, workmanlike, no-frills commentary in the four-horse race at Ffos Las. He mentioned the jockeys a couple of times during the race and, at the end, mentioned the winning trainer, Lucy Wadham, and the jockey aboard odds-on favourite Super Directa.
There was no sign of any couldn’t-care-less attitude and it was interesting that, on At The Races last week, Sean Boyce called him the best of the racecourse commentators because he does the job reliably and straight.
No doubt Jeremy Grayson would agree with that, especially as Harris is one of the leading lights of the point-to-pointing scene. Jeremy might make it a photo-finish between Martin Harris and Iain Mackenzie, come to think of it, though.
Two minor races at two minor meetings. But the two commentators involved, although not setting the world alight, managed to do a bit more than that lamentable Doncaster commentary.Oh dear, I really am garbage. I feel I should contribute something towards any ongoing psychological damage inflicted on you by Doncaster last week; I am going to get Atr to permanantly remove all Doncaster archive to prevent others suffering the same way.
You know Crusty/Jeykll/Hyde, whoever you really are, this platform is a really good spot to engage with racing fans, including those who have a rational dislike of ones work. However I think we should leave our exchange with your earlier admission that you "can’t stand" me rather than accept your similarly recent observation that my Cheltenham commentaries "are excellent and have been widely praised."
I take exception to you presuming how I choose to work, particularly with jockeys safety and wellbeing in doubt. My heart sank when Steven Clements had that horrific fall at Taunton last week; the potential for the very worst news was immediately obvious.
Enough with you. I look forward to reading your future posts which seem strangely centred around commentators and their movements. My attempts to share reasoned thoughts are at an end, however. Good night ,Sir.
A word of warning; I think there are a couple of three or four runner races at Southwell tomorrow; I hope they dont push you over the edge.
Crusty – As hard as I try, I can’t think how John Hunt could have improved on his effort in
that
3 runner ‘race’ at Docaster.
It’s just really odd criticism IMO. I mean, what was there to articulate apart from a few jumping errors that were all spotted; the third horse tailing off and the winner coming clear on the bridle?
If you can find fault in
that
, then I doubt there’s much right in your world fella. Bizarre.
Ironic that Crusty is asking for more "shouting and bellowing" from J.Hunt Esq. I’m sure (John – please correct me if I’m mistaken) that I recall some of his early efforts resulted in Market Razzy selling hurdles sounding like the Cheltenham Gold Cup.
However, methinks that Crusty is being more then a tad unfair on John who has matured into one of our top broadcasters – saving the "shouting and bellowing" only when warranted.
Anyway, having gone off-piste, back to David Fitzgerald. Agree with all of the positive comments. Would be no suprise to see him at the "top-table" in a few years time.
Good Night All zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Ironic that Crusty is asking for more "shouting and bellowing" from J.Hunt Esq.
However, methinks that Crusty is being more then a tad unfair on John who has matured into one of our top broadcasters – saving the "shouting and bellowing" only when warranted.CarryOnKatie, you’ll see that, in actual fact, in an earlier post, I specifically said that I wasn’t calling for more shouting and bellowing from John Hunt, especially in three-horse races. That wouldn’t be appropriate.
I also said that he was very accurate, did excellent radio commentaries and had been rightly widely praised. As Onthesteal has said, he picked up on all the actual things that happened in that Doncaster race, which is obviously the prime job, as I conceded. All credit to him for that.
I also said commentaries were matters of personal preference, with some liking a bit more colour and detail and others liking the keep-it-to-the-basics approach. I said that there was no right and wrong, just personal taste.
John — I thought those in the public eye took it as read that their efforts might occasionally be scrutinised, not always fawningly. I’m happy to draw a veil over matters. I’m loving the spelling of "Jeykll" instead of "Jekyll". Thanks for the advance warning about Southwell. Have just set the video for it.Oh dear, I really am garbage.
A word of warning; I think there are a couple of three or four runner races at Southwell tomorrow; I hope they don’t push you over the edge.Good commentaries from John Hunt over the jumps at Southwell today.
I saw the two four-horse races on the card and enjoyed watching the races and listening to John’s commentaries.
He gave mentions to the jockeys in the chase won by 1-3 shot Lively Baron, as well as mentioning winning trainer Donald McCain, jockey Jason Maguire and owner Trevor Hemmings, not to mention the fact that Peter Bowen was looking for a quick double.
It was good that he mentioned that jockey Hannah Watson and her horse appeared to be safe and sound after taking a tumble.
In the next race, he quickly mentioned that Maguire and McCain were looking for a double and he excelled himself by congratulating 7lb-claimer Charles Greene for making up a lot of ground in the closing stages to snatch second place on 40-1 chance Future Dominion.
Nice touch that, especially as the late progress made by horse and jockey was largely off camera for TV and betting shop viewers.
The race was won by 1-10 favourite Golden Call and John turned it into an interesting little race. Well done to him, especially for that pat-on-the-back to Charles Greene.
Praise where praise is due. I like to be fair and this is my way of showing it. I’ve only seen those two races so far (the rest are on video) but, as those two four-runner races were potentially the most challenging for the commentator, I’m sure the other commentaries, with bigger fields, will be equally good.Great to see that racecourse commentator David Fitzgerald is on the January rota for commentator allocations.
He has been allocated three meetings in January. I knew it would be a formality after he made such a good impression this year in his first year on the rota. I haven’t heard or read one bad word about him.
Good too that Tommo and Iain Mackenzie are also on the January list. Any speculation that their days might be numbered on the grounds of age have proved wide of the mark, thankfully. Tommo was on particularly fine form at Leicester in a race that I saw yesterday.
There are no changes to the team for next year, with all the present commentators seemingly back for another year.
Good to see also that Alastair Down will be at Aintree for Channel 4’s first proper outing at the course. There was an interesting feature on the Channel 4 team’s move into Aintree on a more serious basis in today’s Racing Post.According to ATR tonight Matt Chapman has been given 15 meetings for the first six months of next year as a trial.
According to Chappers, Gary Capewell (does a lot of Pure Arab meetings) and John Blanche are also on board next year.
According to ATR tonight Matt Chapman has been given 15 meetings for the first six months of next year as a trial.
According to Chappers, Gary Capewell (does a lot of Pure Arab meetings) and John Blanche are also on board next year.Interesting. Matt Chapman and the others certainly aren’t on the official list of allocations I have just seen for January which has just been put out and which should include every race meeting.
It’s just got the 17 regulars listed as follows: Ian Bartlett, Mike Cattermole, Tony Ennis, David Fitzgerald, Martin Harris, Richard Hoiles, Alan Howes, John Hunt, Mark Johnson, Stewart Machin, Iain Mackenzie, Jim McGrath, Lee McKenzie, Darren Owen, Mark Slater, Derek Thompson and Malcolm Tomlinson.
Perhaps there’s another list for those on trial or probation. Or, perhaps more likely, Matt Chapman will be sharing a commentary day with one of the other commentators and doing only a couple of races on specific days, with the established commentator as a mentor or guide.According to ATR tonight Matt Chapman has been given 15 meetings for the first six months of next year as a trial.
According to Chappers, Gary Capewell (does a lot of Pure Arab meetings) and John Blanche are also on board next year.
Oh dear meetings I will have to watch with the sound off. Lets hope Mr Chapman has a change of mind and sticks to what he is best to.
Great to see that racecourse commentator David Fitzgerald is on the January rota for commentator allocations.
He has been allocated three meetings in January. I knew it would be a formality after he made such a good impression this year in his first year on the rota. I haven’t heard or read one bad word about him.
Good too that Tommo and Iain Mackenzie are also on the January list. Any speculation that their days might be numbered on the grounds of age have proved wide of the mark, thankfully. Tommo was on particularly fine form at Leicester in a race that I saw yesterday.
There are no changes to the team for next year, with all the present commentators seemingly back for another year.
Good to see also that Alastair Down will be at Aintree for Channel 4’s first proper outing at the course. There was an interesting feature on the Channel 4 team’s move into Aintree on a more serious basis in today’s Racing Post.Is the roster made offical these days Crusty??
Great to see that racecourse commentator David Fitzgerald is on the January rota for commentator allocations.
He has been allocated three meetings in January. I knew it would be a formality after he made such a good impression this year in his first year on the rota. I haven’t heard or read one bad word about him.
Good too that Tommo and Iain Mackenzie are also on the January list. Any speculation that their days might be numbered on the grounds of age have proved wide of the mark, thankfully. Tommo was on particularly fine form at Leicester in a race that I saw yesterday.
There are no changes to the team for next year, with all the present commentators seemingly back for another year.
Good to see also that Alastair Down will be at Aintree for Channel 4’s first proper outing at the course. There was an interesting feature on the Channel 4 team’s move into Aintree on a more serious basis in today’s Racing Post.Is the roster made official these days Crusty??
It’s circulated internally to those commentators involved about a couple of months in advance, usually towards the end of each month once commentators have provided details of any dates they are unavailable or would prefer.
It’s sent out on three fetching pink sheets of paper, six commentators to a page, beginning alphabetically with Ian Bartlett and ending on the third page with Malcolm Tomlinson.
Amendments are sent out as Version Two etc on yellow or other differently coloured sheets of paper.
It’s obviously for internal consumption only, as a staff rota in any company would be, and not for public viewing but other interested parties in the industry obviously do get to see it one way or another.
The list contains other bits of information for the commentator, such as whether Channel 4, the BBC (not very often) or Racing UK are covering the meeting. It doesn’t mention At The Races.
It also says whether the meeting is National Hunt or all-weather and other occasional bits of information such as "two pony races" (of special interest to David Fitzgerald, as mentioned earlier in the thread) or whether something extra is required, such as being Kempton Park course TV service presenter.
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