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In my mind Henrythenavigator and Raven’s Pass should be rated equally. The thing that separates them is the start, the way the race pans out and how they are ridden
Peruvian Chief, i’d agree that the 2000 guineas shaped their careers. I just don’t think Hawk Wing could have run in and won all the races the Rock did; i’d therefore be inclined to think that the Rock was better. 7 G1’s in a row is an astounding achievement when you think about it. The Irish 2000 guineas win was ridiculous: http://www.coolmore.com/stallions/ireland/rock_of_gibraltar/?vid=111
If I shouldn’t post that up let me know and i’ll take it off.
Good to see that good old Hawk Wing can still be relied upon to get debate going. Easily the most discussed horse in TRF history (although Kauto Star/Denman catching up).
Hail the Hawk (!), was always good for a (friendly) row in my local boozer as well, as well as (more recently and to a lesser extent) Harchibald.
Aragorn – although we will never know for sure, and against y heart, i would probably have to agree with you on balance of probabilities regarding the 7 G1’s.
Are people really saying the best horse is not the horse capable of the best performance? Best surely means the best? Let’s turn it around, can we have a horse rated the best not being the best?
I think some are confusing what races a horse wins with form. Form is not races won but what horses it beats and by how far. If a horse puts up his best performance in one Group 1, it does not make any difference whether he wins six more or no more. He is still only capable of a performance as good as his best performance.
And sure Rock Of Gibraltar might have been capable of better form than his best form. Impossible to say, so might Hawk Wing had he been pressed in the Lockinge. We can only rate them on what they did.
I was opposite the point where ROG started his electrifying burst of speed in the Sussex. But was also at Newbury to see an outstanding display by Hawk Wing.
Mark
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
Are people really saying the best horse is not the horse capable of the best performance? Best surely means the best? Let’s turn it around, can we have a horse rated the best not being the best?
I think some are confusing what races a horse wins with form. Form is not races won but what horses it beats and by how far. If a horse puts up his best performance in one Group 1, it does not make any difference whether he wins six more or no more. He is still only capable of a performance as good as his best performance.
And sure Rock Of Gibraltar might have been capable of better form than his best form. Impossible to say, so might Hawk Wing had he been pressed in the Lockinge. We can only rate them on what they did.
I was opposite the point where ROG started his electrifying burst of speed in the Sussex. But was also at Newbury to see an outstanding display by Hawk Wing.
Mark
Form is also dependent on the circumstances it is achieved in, and thrashing the moderate Where Or When on ground that didn’t suit, and an Olden Times running over a distance short of his best is hardly as breathtaking as some ratings would have us believe. Fast times don’t do it either, as even modest horses often achieve better times when given an easy lead throughout the race than when challenged by horses of similar calibre.
Hawk Wing won just 2 of his 8 starts from being a 3yo, both against questionable opposition, which says far more about the horse than one quirky result ever would.This might sound nuts but I think Ravens has run better races this season and lost. Henry was under pressure too far out for my liking.
In some races jock’s get the pace wrong and I think this was one of those times. The fact JF was closer to the pacemaker and had less to do to get to him stood him in good stead here. Simply a case of getting first run, the pace being very hot took some steam out of both Henry and RP and the gap never really decreased. Had Henry been on Ravens quarters all the way who knows which would have won.
I’m a huge fan of Raven’s and backed him to win the guineas. On the day he won on merit but not because of any change in tactics. He was simply closer to the very strong pace and got first run whereas your man misjudged how much the hot pace was taking out of both horses.
I have to ask myself is Raven’s pass better than Henry? Would he beat him again? I know I would like to think so but I seriously doubt it.
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Fist
Nice theory, but wouldn’t it make more sense that Raven’s Pass has progressed where Henrythenavigator hasn’t?
I completely agree, reet hard, on both of your last two posts, re form and HTN/RP.
Onthesteal pointed out correctly that there was a bit of contradiction in my previous message, and what I was trying to say is exactly that, that RP has progressed each time out, while Henry WAS in peak form back in summer, and he’s lost a bit of that now.
For the last possible race in which they can compete against each other, I think that RP will run away with it again… should it be 1m and in turf. My feeling is that Henry, though being a high class individual, will not get back to the Ascot/Goodwood form, while I think RP has got a little bit extra in the tank still. So, Fist of Fury 2k8, I think you’ll see "your" horse giving you some more happy times.Agree. Swap the connections and Ravens wins the SJP, SS & QE. Only my opinion of course.
However, you cannot be alone. After Saturday I am in absolute agreement.
The Queen Elizabeth II is the title bout. The best milers in Europe are called upon for their final exposure against each other, after a full season of racing and improvement to this stage.
And over time, Raven’s Pass has edged ever so closer to Henry, with the deserving win on points sealing any doubt IMO.
I hope both RP and Tamayuz continue to be trained next season.
Reet – Hawk Wings Lockinge dust-eaters included Domedriver who beat ‘guess who’ in the Breeders Cup. Its harsh, bordering on impossible, to realistically crab Hawk Wings Lockinge.
It not really of case of Ravens Pass progressing pass htn,in the sjp stakes rp was never really catching htn ,and at goodwood,htn took over from 3 furlongs out and was again was always holding rp.Coolmore should off run htn in the irish champions stakes every since goodwood he has looked like he has need 10f,but on fast ground at santa anita around tight turns i would expect htn to win the mile race if he goes for that.
I think RP has improved based on the fact he has got closer to HTN each time he has run against him and finally beat him.
As for HW and ROG the latter beat the former on the 2 occasions they met so says it all imo.
To be fair Domedriver did not run to form in the Lockinge.
But Hawk Wing beat Olden Times, a Prix Jean Prat winner and easy winner of the Earl Of Sefton on his previous start; by 19 lengths in to 3rd.
Where Or When won the Queen Elizabeth II, so hardly a moderate horse, beaten 11 lengths in to 2nd. Although it was raining at the time of the race, it was described by Timeform as being good-firm ground afterwards. The time of 1m36.78 sec being impossible to produce on a soft surface.
Even by accessing the ground as good-firm Timeform rate Hawk Wing at 136 and Rock Of Gibralter at 133.
Value Is EverythingTo be fair Domedriver did not run to form in the Lockinge.
But Hawk Wing beat Olden Times, a Prix Jean Prat winner and easy winner of the Earl Of Sefton on his previous start; by 19 lengths in to 3rd.
Where Or When won the Queen Elizabeth II, so hardly a moderate horse, beaten 11 lengths in to 2nd. Although it was raining at the time of the race, it was described by Timeform as being good-firm ground afterwards. The time of 1m36.78 sec being impossible to produce on a soft surface.
Even by accessing the ground as good-firm Timeform rate Hawk Wing at 136 and Rock Of Gibralter at 133.
That Hawk Wing win was a freak result. Remember Spinning Queen? On her last start she beat Soviet Song 9 lengths with Alexander Goldrun and Red Evie behind. Freak results do happen. You couldve rated Spinning Queen 130 odd for that performance but in reality she was a stone below that sort of figure.
The beaten horses didn’t run to form in Hawk Wings Lockinge to say he was a better horse than the Rock I find difficult to comprehend as the Rock was a true champion miler winning six(?) group ones whereas Hawk Wing lost six of his eleven starts, hardly the form of a true champion. Added to that the only time they met Rock Of Gibraltar beat Hawk Wing. The Rock’s superiority looks pretty clear cut to me.
Not as clear cut as that really, i refer to my previous post – would ROG have been so consistent had he been forced to run over the range of distances and surfaces Hawk Wing did. He would probably have had to had the 2000G been 50 yards longer, and maybe Hawk Wing would have farmed the top mile races.
All maybes of course.
Consistency of G1 winning performances and beating the best opposition possible ( around at the time) is what makes horses great.
Hawk Wing ( imo ) was a good horse, but let’s be honest ; he more often than not was a bit of an old monkey.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
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GT
Where Or When won the Queen Elizabeth II, so hardly a moderate horse,
I think some are confusing what races a horse wins with form.
Say no more!
Where or when won a poor QE11, and like Hawk Wing was over-rated for it. Also like HW, he never ran anywhere near that exalted figure, before or afterwards.
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