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Librettist, that is an amazing passage you have selected. The first sentence alone contradicts itself twice.
The panel obviously still think there was deliberate obstruction but declined from saying so, presumably for lack of evidence, and even went so far as to atate the opposite. This allowed Coolmore to claim an honourable exit until news of the six days given to Heffernan came through.
Six days for an "offence" that wouldn’t even have registered on the radar had there been no suspicion of team tactics shows what the panel really thinks but dare not say.
Monkey, I couldn’t agree more.
The bit I was referring too was the last part of the passage when they answer their own question regarding the fact that this situation with Ivan Denisovich and Librettist would obviously not have happened if it was George Washington being carried wide.
Personally I would like to see pacemakers banned. It’s not as if they can step off the track (like in Athletics) when knackered, and they always caused interference to some horses whilst beating their retreat. Nobody can convince me that this is fair in the slightest. A horse that has to switch round a pacemaker and subsequently gets beaten a neck or half a length would have legitimate grounds for complaint.
I think races should be run with each and every horse trying it’s hardest to achieve the best possible placing and if there is a steady pace and a sprint finish, or a horse ‘nicks’ a race from the front, then tough, that’s racing and that is what race-riding is all about – the judgement of pace and timing your run. Connections fearing this should instruct their riders to go out an make the running if they want a good pace. If a horse cannot or will not do that, then do they deserve to win that particular race? I think not. The winner will be the most adaptable to the race conditions on any given day, just like in virtually every race of the season.
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I think you have an argument, but what you say applies as much to any other no-hoper looking for a moment of glory at the front of the pack as it does to pacemakers.
I think it would have helped the QEII enquiry if the rules required connections of multiple entries to file the instructions given to their jockeys in a sealed envelope a few minutes before the race.
Banning pacemakers would cause uproar – the amount of runners in big races would fall, and horses would actually lose value in the sales ring.
If a horse likes to come off the pace, but there is no guaranteed pace, then surely the money spent is an even bigger gamble, as the horse may never get a decent enough pace to make an impact.
ok…and then what about the horse that as the ability to quicken well from a moderate pace? Why should the pace of the race be falsely altered to the disadvantage those animals? I just think that races should have a natural outcome. Pacemakers promote interference, possible team-tactics and grey areas as seen in the QE2 that racing doesn’t need.
Jack, I’m interested to know why you think that there would be "uproar, less runners in the big races and the value of horses in the sales ring would go down"? And i’m probably being thick but you have completely lost me with the comment about the value of horses in the sales ring being affected. Do Group One horses go through the sales ring (after they are considered good enough to run in the top races, obviously)? I’d hazard a guess that not many do.
The way to get round the worry of any other no-hoper getting in the way after chasing his moment of glory is to set a lower rating limit. No more Astonville running in the Champion Hurdle or Gold Cup i’m afraid, but i’m sure we could all live with that…apart from his owner of course.
Hurricane Run – was so obvious that he needed a fast pace in order to quicken, as shown in the French Derby. But what on earth would be the point of buying HR if you were never sure of there being a fast pace in any of his other races?
There would be no point, because he would simply never quicken, and be stuck in the midfield staying on slowly.
What is the ratio of horses that need a fast pace to quicken, to those horses who can quicken from a slow pace. Would love to see those figures.
Anyway, is pointless discussing it. Ace was used as a pacemaker in the Irish Champ Stakes, and he has often been placed in Group 1 company – More of that would start happening. Actually, also just like Cherry Mix was used in the King George.
Yeah I have to agree – Ivan Denisovic has been placed in many Group 1s at 2yo and 3yo. Bounced back to form with a Listed win 6 days earlier, he was perfectly entitled to take his chance, and I think Heffernan would have been delighted with the ride, as in my eyes, at long odds, he certainly had a great chance of making the first 3.
And like someone else said, the first line in the report completely contradicts itself – the whole thing does. If Librettist’s chances were unharmed, why on earth has he still been given a ban? The panel is a joke…
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Quote: from jackane24 on 12:34 am on Oct. 5, 2006[br]Hurricane Run – was so obvious that he needed a fast pace in order to quicken, as shown in the French Derby. But what on earth would be the point of buying HR if you were never sure of there being a fast pace in any of his other races?
There would be no point, because he would simply never quicken, and be stuck in the midfield staying on slowly.<br>
Where, oh where, is the evidence for such a statement?:o <br> Did it stop him winning a steadily run Irish Derby, or a modest paced King George?<br>Excusable in your case because of your youth, but like many others on here, you need to distinguish between pace and stamina.
If you start from the position that Stewards and the Panel are idiots then of course you can find any justification you want in the Panel’s findings including Jackanes view that they are a joke.
If you accept that the Stipendary Stewards are full time professionals doing their best and that the other appointed stewards whilst being amateurs have far more exposure to owning and breeding horses and talking to trainers and jockeys than the average TV viewer then ones judgement may be different.
Their camera view was far more detailed than ATR’s and their is absolutely no doubt that Librettist was carried wide by Heffernan. O’Brien agreed that they ran wide but claimed reasons which the Panel considered and rejected.
The team tactics arguement was considered, passionately opposed by O’Brien and rejected on the balance of probabilities by the Stewards.
Heffernan then got done as he should for gradually taking a horse wide over a 12.4 second period.
I dont know what more you can ask a panel to do. The issue received a full and unbiased hearing by competent professionals and has been ruled on.
Depending on our predujices we may have our views but since none of us have heard the evidence or seen the chasing cameras views our views can hardly be called informed.
I thought the conclusion was not too bad given that we will never really know what was going on in the head of the protagonists. The point about "if it had been GW" is a slightly brutal one but who would argue with that?
Certainly as TDK pointed out, it looked like ID was ridden fairly hard to keep L wide.
it could be argued that unless the stewards were certain that what appeared to happen was the intention then they should do nothing. But is that really an option?
Hurricane Run – was so obvious that he needed a fast pace in order to quicken, as shown in the French Derby. But what on earth would be the point of buying HR if you were never sure of there being a fast pace in any of his other races?
There would be no point, because he would simply never quicken, and be stuck in the midfield staying on slowly.
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Great stuff…..you can see Magnier and co looking at a horse in the sales thinking….great pedigree, great mover, great looker…..But there is no point buying him as we cannot have a pacemaker for him!!!!! <br>
they didnt aidan? ;)
Anyway, what happened to riding from the front?
Wheres Stevie C when we need him?
Mark Johnstons team have few fears about these tactics and would it have been impossible to ride HR ahead of the pace on Sunday?
" But what on earth would be the point of buying HR if you were never sure of there being a fast pace in any of his other races?"
I supose they could buy one quick off a moderate pace :)
SHL
Quote: from jackane24 on 12:34 am on Oct. 5, 2006[br]Hurricane Run – was so obvious that he needed a fast pace in order to quicken, as shown in the French Derby. But what on earth would be the point of buying HR if you were never sure of there being a fast pace in any of his other races?
There would be no point, because he would simply never quicken, and be stuck in the midfield staying on slowly.
Anyway, is pointless discussing it. Ace was used as a pacemaker in the Irish Champ Stakes, and he has often been placed in Group 1 company – More of that would start happening. Actually, also just like Cherry Mix was used in the King George.<br>
Oh come on Jackane! How did whoever bought him as a baby have any idea whether he had a turn of foot or not? Can’t you even consider the possibility that it was the reduction in trip of the French Derby by a couple of furlongs that cost him and not (what you percieve to be) a lack of pace in that race? I get the feeling that as long as the pace is ok to suit Coolmore/Tabor/Fallon then that’s ok with you…and never mind everyone else!
And it isn’t pointless discussing it – that is what the forum is for. I enjoy reading the opinions of posters on here (including yours), whether I agree with them or not. I know you’ve posted on another thread about being singled out and "ripped to shreads" but maybe you should apply a little more of a balance to your argument and not let your pro-Coolmore/anti-Godolphin leanings shine through quite so much :biggrin:
No no no no no – I know Hurricane Run lost the French Derby because of the distance – my point was that he quickened brilliantly off a quick pace, but didn’t quicken anything like as well in the Irish Derby.
But my point about banning pacemakers – why should ANY stable, not just ballydoyle, part with 1m+ guineas for a horse that is likely to need fast pace in order to quicken.
Not every horse in the world is like Pride – that is what makes her so unique, she can quicken off a slow pace. But look at the Arc field on Sunday – Deep Impact, Hurricane Run, Shirocco all wanted a quick pace. Pride was the only one in the field that could really quicken from a slow pace.
But since all 3 were in different ownership, none of them wanted to run pacemakers, as although the extra pace would benefit their own runner, it would also benefit the rest of the field. And look what happened – Shirocco was forced to go up to inject some pace, which ultimately resulted in him finishing so low down. (admittedly Soumillon said he wasn’t himself, but would have finished higher but for him having to inject pace)
If horses that are likely to need fast pace to quicken and they don’t get it, then there is always a chance that they won’t win any races. Which means they will be very ‘cryptic’ if you will at stud, as no-one will know if he/she is any good.
So why should ANY stable pay so much money for a horse?
Although this would never be a problem in America. Ie, all the main favourites in the KY Derby this year raced either on or just off the pace.
that is what makes her so unique, she can quicken off a slow pace
Hardly "unique" as demonstrated by the GREAT SIR PERCY
(just to annoy Aidan) :)
IMO these slow paced races are there to be stolen and I REPEAT…where is Stevie C when you need him? he could ride with a clock in his head (and a few others were excellent judges too) but seemingly this is beyond the capabilities of some of supposed "genius" riders we are expected to fawn over these days (although Frankie is a fair judge too)
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So you can spot this type of horse as a foal can you? And how often are G1 races materially affected by a lack of pace?
And as for Pride, well good for her and her owners. Are you saying it’s ok for some connections to manipulate the race conditions so that they disadvantage her but not others?
The Arc was run to it’s natural conclusion on the day and that is just the nature of Horse Racing surely, and there is always going to be one horse suited by the race conditions slightly more than the rest but I object when this is done artificially and unneccesary interference/team tactics take place.
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