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Problems With a Bet – Advice Needed

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  • #760
    FlatSeasonLover
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2066

    As I was unavailable this morning due to travelling on a train I got a relative to put my bets on for me. One of these was Whispered Secrets that was down as 25/1 in the paper with several bookmakers. (I actually posted it in the lays and plays last night). One of these bookmakers was Ladbrokes so I told my relative to put it on there however there was a bit of a miscommunication and they put it on at William Hills instead which was down as 20/1 in the paper. They put it through at 25/1 but that is not my bone of contention.

    I had £8ew on it as it wasn’t a strong feeling, just a hunch that is was overpriced. So

    £8ew at 25/1 = £256<br>£8ew at 20/1 = £208

    You can imagine then I was suprised when I got offered £150.40 for the bet. According to William Hills

    1) Any price on the slip that is not circled is invalid even if the slip was checked as a non-runner was pointed out on the slip.

    2) Due to a non-runner (No Full 6/1) the advertised price in the paper becomes invalid.

    3) The market was reformed before opening time due to the non-runner and Whispered Secret was changed to 14/1. – This is strange because the non-runner was 6/1 so if it was to be changed it would work out at 18/1 in my book.

    4) The company then honour the revised price until 10:15.

    My queries with the bet therefore are as follows:

    1) Writing a price on a slip is therefore a worthless practice with William Hills. If I accept a bet with a price at the bookmakers I work for we honour the bet. It is my job to check the price and to change it if it is wrong.

    2) Why advertise a price in the paper if it is not actually attainable?

    3) Why not have a Rule 4 rather than reforming the market? At 6/1 that is 10p or 15p? Then when the restrictions at 10:15 are lifted reform the book. The other thing is I am assuming that No Full was withdrawn prior to the shops opening time of 9:30? He couldn’t find the time the horse was withdrawn at.

    4) The guy in the shop seemed to think I was a Pricewise price stealer who knew that the horse was going to be hammered it. To my knowledge, NO-ONE had tipped the horse up (except me!) Therefore I don’t understand the market move and I certainly didn’t foresee it. If William Hills had inside information it was going to be backed and so cut the price by 33% then that is just diabolical in my opinion. I don’t know what the best price available was at opening time, but I am assuming that if you shopped around you could still of got 25/1?

    I know £100 isn’t much to a lot of people on here but to a tight student like me;) its a lot of money. I was wondering if i have any entitlements to the 20/1 or 25/1. Basically I was stood there in the shop "discussing the bet in an animated way" and he told me I should ring customer services on 0800444040.

    Am I wasting my time? Should I ring the number? Should i write a letter of complaint? Any advice would be appreciated even if it is just that I aint going to do any better than 14/1.

    And I don’t know which gits backed it but they knackered the price for my 4PP too! :(

    #37022
    davidjohnson
    Member
    • Total Posts 4491

    By the time you’d written this you could have spoken to customer services. :biggrin:

    Basically you haven’t got a leg to stand on. It’s happened numerous times in the past, and will do in the future, that when a non-runner is declared in the early price races, bookmakers often make a trading decision to open a new book (and adjust the price of ‘live’ horses accordingly) rather than lay a price that they issued before information came to light that it was likely to be well backed.

    #37023
    Maurice
    Participant
    • Total Posts 355

    If a N/R is declared after the bet is struck R4 applies. The new market applies only to bets struck after the new market has been formed.

    It is normal practice for shop staff to circle and initial prices taken. Whether it is mandatory, I don’t know but the bet will have been timed and copied and any shop manager worth their salt would honour the bet. I reckon most would with ‘regulars’ but if no-one recognised your friend they might be suspicious.

    What would have happened if the horse had drifted to 40/1 and you’d been paid at that price? Or does the shop/firm have a history of paying according to what costs them least?

    I had a very nasty experience myself today. I went into the totesport website to back exactas and trifectas in the last at Cheltenham. Usually I can’t get into the right page without navigating about a bit but today I got straight in and soon had my bets entered.

    When Ashley Brook beat French Saulaie and the exacta paid 112/1 I was celebrating but when I checked my account I was paid the CSF return of 66/1. I phoned immediately and told them I’d backed the exacta but they said I hadn’t. I navigated my way into the pages again only to discover they now default to CSFs and Tricasts and I hadn’t noticed. It said ‘exactas & trifectas’ at the top of the page, which I thought was a title but it turns out this is a hyperlink.

    I feel conned but can do nothing about it either.

    #37024
    rory
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2685

    It’s a little bit of a sneaky get out clause that big bookies use to enable them to reform a market, but that said, they are entitled to take their stance. Your one possibility is arguing that you would have taken the bet elsewhere had you known the price wasn’t ratified. In saying that, despite occasional acceptance, prices written by customers on their own slips simply aren’t valid, and this is a mistake that punters keep making.

    #37025
    Maurice
    Participant
    • Total Posts 355

    Just re-read your post. It looks like they are in the right since the N/R was declared so early. Once a new market is required, all previous odds are irrelevant and they can take into account any activity relating to the horse. It happens a lot.

    I think it’s also the done thing to ask the counter staff to check and add the price. It’s certainly the way it’s been done in any shop I’ve visited on the last umpteen years.

    Let’s have a mutual comiseratory drink this evening, FSL…

    #37026
    FlatSeasonLover
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2066

    But is this fair practice? Lets say we have a 10 runner race that they have priced up the day before. The 200/1 rag is withdrawn overnight. As Hills look at the exchanges early morning and clearly have their sources they know that Bobs Your Uncle is Pricewise and that everyone is rushing to back it. In addition, Easy As Pie has form figures of 000 but the exchanges have been awash with money for it all and early morning. Therefore Hills decide to do a little reshuffling

    Old Market                              New Book

    Dodgy Bet 2/1                            15/8<br>Tight Connections 5/2                5/2<br>William Whitewash 5/1               5/1<br>Bobs Your Uncle 8/1                   6/1<br>Mr Non-Trier 8/1                         8/1<br>Photo Finish 10/1                      10/1<br>Seconditis 10/1                          10/1<br>Easy As Pie 20/1                        12/1<br>You Must Be Joking 50/1            50/1 <br>The Rag 200/1                           N/R

    So Hills are quite entitled to do the above then? You see I would bet the new book had a bigger overround than the old one before No Full was pulled out and that’s saying something considering the juicy margins they operate at!

    What did other firms do? Did they all re-from the market or did they do a Rule 4? If only Hills did it then they stink and i shall bet elsewhere quite frankly.

    #37027
    jaslang
    Member
    • Total Posts 178

    In my experience on the rare times I bet in a shop…I always ask them to check the prices that I have placed on the slip (from the screens).

    They then always circle them

    Dont know if this applies to every shop but it has done for me

    :(

    #37028
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17718

    Jaslang

    Yesterday, I went into a Hill’s shop and backed 2 horses, writing the prices on both. The cashier asked if I got the prices from the screen, the answer being affirmative, the bets were put through without circling. This happens often in any of the bigger bookmakers!<br>I recall when Ladbrokes pioneered the p.o.s. equipment, they made a specific point – even with larger bets they would normally phone off- of not checking prices, as "they would be rejected by the other end,  if unacceptable".<br>As with many other bookmaker’s rules, they are only trotted out when something arises to their disadvantage.<br>There is absolutely no reason at all why advertised prices cannot be honoured, with an appropriate rule 4, until 15 minutes after the shops open, but honour went out of the door along with the independent bookmakers.:( <br>

    (Edited by reet hard at 7:47 am on Jan. 28, 2007)

    #37029
    rory
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2685

    FSL,

    why invent an entirely mythical scenario to prove your point? I suspect Hills’ new book had exactly the same overround as their old book. The fact that you trusted a relative who wasn’t au fait with the rules was your downfall. Live with it.

    #37030
    Seagull
    Member
    • Total Posts 1708

    FSL<br>As a (very small) shareholder in William Hills can you please stop wasting the companies time in dealing with complaints such as this.

    I expect all managers to concentrate on ensuring the FOBT (fixed odds betting terminals) are always working and that they are always emptied at regular intervals by the manager in order to avoid jamming up the cash box with money.

    I expect every manager to concentrate on promoting virtual racing as there are never any non runners or indeed horses falling over.

    I hope every manager will be open soon at 8.30 am for our latest promotion Australian Greyhound racing and of course to start up the FOBT machines.

    I hope we can do away with the football bets soon as we can introduce virtual football where no one will be sent off and it will be more of a challenge for punters as there will be no ‘shoe ins’ such as Man U and Celtic which have cost us money this season.

    (Any bets which have the word Federrer to win will also be declined.)

    All complaints should be dealt with by installing a premium rate telephone number so our valued customers can listen to the lastest action from Lucksin Downs whilst waiting for the call to be answered.

    We are a company that values our staff so can customers please refrain from having bets between 12.30 and 12.40 whilst our managers have their lunch break and also from 7 -7.10 whilst they have their evening meal (aka sandwich and a cup of tea from the flask) before the start of the evening action.<br>Thanks

    #37031
    sporting sam
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2100

    I`m with Rory on this one.<br>1 You did`nt place the bet yourself<br>2 your relative went to the wrong firm<br>3 wrote a non existant price on the slip<br>4 you are thinking Will Hills price of 20/1 old market should be 18/1 new market  not 14/1 but your relative was in wrong shop.  <br>Where would you start with a complaint?<br>"Dear Magic Sign care  of BillHill…"<br>Learn from the experience and be determined not to make the same mistake in the future.<br>Some firms are 24/7 and you could have got on the night before. And also Exchanges are waiting with open arms. <br>A letter of complaint rightly worded will probably get you some goodwill £10 free bet vouchers and some more betting advice.<br>£150 makes you the most popular guy at the Student union Bar. <br>Your biggest task may be getting the dosh off your relative especially if they had to stump up the stake money….<br>Move on and keep putting up these super duper selections.

    #37032
    barry dennis
    Member
    • Total Posts 398

    Please don’t bet bet with us dodgy bookmakers,

    exchanges are the way forward,   20% better,  their deductions are much more realistic, sit in the comfort of your armchair and know immediately the returns.

    you know it makes sense.

    #37033
    sporting sam
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2100

    Barry. What was your Bismark yesterday?  

    #37034
    yeats
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2937

    I agree with barry dennis, I’ve long since stopped betting with bookmakers, more trouble than it’s worth.

    #37035
    Maurice
    Participant
    • Total Posts 355

    Some firms are 24/7 and you could have got on the night before.

    From my experience of internet betting, website prices tend to disappear from about 9.30pm the night before, with only SP available, if that.

    Telephone betting is an option but few firms open at 8.30 and they refuse to hold prices.

    I once got through to Coral at 8.30 on the dot and was told the price (8/1) was not available. The horse was now 9/2.

    "It’s the only horse we’ve had money for all morning," said the operator.

    "But you’ve only opened just this second!" I replied.

    "We’re open earlier to special clients," came the reply.

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