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hi betlarge
First off, let me say that when I address a statement, it is only the statement that I address.
The brightest person can make an inaccurate statement and the dullest person can make an accurate statement.
I don’t know the individual behind the statement.
I’m in no position to say anything about them.
I hope I’m not taken to say anything about them.
My apologies if you feel I failed in the last bit. The only reason I mentioned your ident was to give a source for a statement that was on a different thread. Stating sources is something I tend to do when quoting statements made by others .
I’m not into ad hominem comments – its not what the forum is about – and I hope any notion of that is dispelled.
Moving on to your request, I can’t immediately speak as to the French PMU since I’ve not looked into what it offers or how it is set out.
As to the HK PMU though, there is a demonstration available here by clicking the tabs at the bottom marked All Up and Cross Pool All Up :
http://special.hkjc.com/racing/info/en/ … e_fill.asp
The All-Up example given is for combining three horses using only the win pools:
http://www.hkjc.com/ENGLISH/betting/ticket_allup.asp
The Cross Pool All-Up example shows how to combine a Win & Place selection in race 1 with a Quinella & Quinella Place in race 2 with Win in race 6 with a Quinella Place in race 8:
http://www.hkjc.com/ENGLISH/betting/tic … lallup.asp
Both All Up and Cross Pool All Up can accommodate 2 – 6 races.
These examples deal with filling in a card for over-the-counter betting.
The same options are available online, though its difficult to demonstrate them outside of racedays because you need active racecards. These will next be active Saturday for Sunday’s meeting.
Basically on this home page:
http://www.hkjc.com/home/english/index.asp
you drill down through the tabs Horse Racing – Racing Info (Local) – Current Odds. Links to the All Up etc pages are then listed down the left-hand-most column.
best regards
wit
Click on this link http://www.hkjc.com/ENGLISH/betting/tic … lallup.asp
Select your races, selections and pool-type (win pool in your case)
Mark the 4×11 in the formula box – a yankee in English parlance (3×4 is a trixie, 3×7 is a patent, 4×15 is a lucky 15, you get the picture…)
Voila!
Thank-you Glenn.
I’m not sure I fully understand the mixing of pool options within the same bet. What I would like to do is open an account and bet a bit with them, but it seems you have to be a HK resident.
Certainly an eye-opener for me as the HK PMU seems to be set up for punters. There’s a few downsides, the lack of taking a price in multiples being the most standout, but overall its highly impressive and I’d very much approve of it.
Compare this with the French PMU options. I still can’t work out how one can do so much as a double, let alone any other multiple bet. The rest of the options seem to be breathtakingly stupid bets for people with lucky numbers:
http://horseraces.pmu.fr/betting-guide
In the UK, the Hong Kong model would be doable. The French model absolutely no chance.
Mike
Wit
You just crossed in the post so to speak, will certainly follow all your links tonight.
Thank-you,
Mike
no problem.
this table sets out which All Up formula to use:
http://special.hkjc.com/racing/info/en/ … ce_all.asp
so eg if you only want the doubles and trebles within a canadian, its 5×20.
Cheers Wit , I am sure the French Pmu is loaded towards the exotics..The Biggie being the Quinte , not so much for the feat of naming the first 5 home …but more importantly to land that and be the lucky draw winner on the same ticket , will net you an extra 1 or 2 million Euros ….nice work if you can get it
I would say the HK version is brilliant and unique…but the French PMU warts and all fund their racing and trotting to a spectacular degree …so much so , an ordinary race in either code would have a prize pool of 32k Euros ….which compared to an average 4k Pounds for an ordinary UK race , shows you where the bar is set
In any event the 7 million or so folks who punt on the PMU in France seem to support it well enough , I cannot recall any major integrity scandals , the racing seems straight enough , and there are no exchanges to worry about ….just about perfect in my opinion
The possibilities for co mingling with the French customer base are juicy …so why nobody is looking at this option for funding our racing is beyond me …we could run it side by side with the bookies and let the punters decide which is the best for them
imo etc
Thank-you for the links Wit. Have now been through them all. Very interesting…
Racing in France seems a strange beast. I lived in the Loire Valley for a year many moons ago and I could not find anyone interested in the sport. At the time I visited Angers racecourse and the place was like a morgue.
I read a piece by Chris Cooke in the Guardian about how Longchamp did a special promotion one Sunday early in summer a couple of years ago. The racing was top-class with group races and decent handicaps, topped off with free entry for everyone. 3000 people turned up. Cooke said it was a meeting where, if held in the UK at Ascot, easily 15000 people would be happy to spend £25 to attend!
I think this indifference can be seen seen in the respective Twitter accounts of the racing dailies either side of the Channel. The Racing Post has 133k followers, Paris-Turf just 4.8k. And talking of Paris-Turf, back in the day they used to have "Les Prognostications de Madame Zelda" or some such bollocks with a gipsy-looking woman making here selections by peering into a crystal ball. There was also a section informing you of the numbers you should be backing according to your horoscope. This was in the national racing daily.
France seems to view betting on horses as a ‘lucky numbers’ game. My experience is that there’s very little on-the-ground interest in the sport as there is in Britain. There is just a vast cultural difference that cannot be bridged, unlike that of Hong Kong (and, erm, which nation set that up anyway?). Trotting may be completely different, I have no knowledge of that sport’s funding.
To try to fund UK racing using the French model would be bonkers. The overwhelming majority of punters in this country do singles and multiples as their standard bets. To hope that they will all turn to doing Pick5’s and Tierce’s – which have absolutely zero precedent or interest in the UK – is not a basis for future funding.
Businesses do not prosper by trying to force their customers to bend to their will. They prosper by offering those customers what they want – and there are no customers in this world so conservative as punters!
A HK-style PMU would have the ability do this and could potentially be a serious way forward. France’s Pari-Mutuel Urbain, absolutely no chance!
Mike
To try to fund UK racing using the French model would be bonkers. The overwhelming majority of punters in this country do singles and multiples as their standard bets. To hope that they will all turn to doing Pick5’s and Tierce’s – which have absolutely zero precedent or interest in the UK – is not a basis for future funding.
Businesses do not prosper by trying to force their customers to bend to their will. They prosper by offering those customers what they want – and there are no customers in this world so conservative as punters!
A
HK-style PMU would have the ability do this and could potentially be a serious way forward. France’s Pari-Mutuel Urbain, absolutely no chance!
This could well be spot on ,
but you dont know until you try it
!!there may well be an appetite for exotic betting , it probably would surprise everyone …I would love to see the opportunity of a healthy pmu system in operation
This could well be spot on ,
but you dont know until you try it
!!there may well be an appetite for exotic betting , it probably would surprise everyone …I would love to see the opportunity of a healthy pmu system in operation
Yes Ricky, but you don’t have time to mess around here.
Were racing to be funded via a PMU, you won’t have a couple of generations to see if punters can be persuaded to take up completely new bets or not. In fact, you won’t even have a couple of months. Racing would need a sustained large income
immediately
, from literally day one.
The only way to do that would be to demonstrate to punters that all the bets they have been doing day-in, day-out for years are still available. Anything else would see an immediate and catastrophic fall in revenue from even today’s levels.
New, exotics bets are something for the future when a Tote that caters for how people bet
today
is already established.
Mike
I read a piece by Chris Cooke in the Guardian about how Longchamp did a special promotion one Sunday early in summer a couple of years ago. The racing was top-class with group races and decent handicaps, topped off with free entry for everyone. 3000 people turned up. Cooke said it was a meeting where, if held in the UK at Ascot, easily 15000 people would be happy to spend £25 to attend!
I think this indifference can be seen seen in the respective Twitter accounts of the racing dailies either side of the Channel. The Racing Post has 133k followers, Paris-Turf just 4.8k. And talking of Paris-Turf, back in the day they used to have "Les Prognostications de Madame Zelda" or some such bollocks with a gipsy-looking woman making here selections by peering into a crystal ball. There was also a section informing you of the numbers you should be backing according to your horoscope. This was in the national racing daily.
France seems to view betting on horses as a ‘lucky numbers’ game. My experience is that there’s very little on-the-ground interest in the sport as there is in Britain. There is just a vast cultural difference that cannot be bridged, unlike that of Hong Kong (and, erm, which nation set that up anyway?). Trotting may be completely different, I have no knowledge of that sport’s funding.
Mike
I would have thought that would encourage you regards having a PMU in the UK.
Little interest in the sport in France yet they have a successful PMU and are racing for great prize money. How could a PMU not be successful in the UK with the much greater interest of the racing public?
One chap on another forum tried to place a bet on a best priced 7/1 shot with Corals for the Hennessy, it was 13/2 elsewhere, he was told he could have 77p. That’s not unusual and many don’t even bother with bookmakers any more. Is that how we want to continue?
Just how exciting would it be to see a PMU for all the big races and big healthy pools instead of being constantly fobbed off by bookmakers. They are turning people off the sport.
I would have thought that would encourage you regards having a PMU in the UK.
It does! But not the French model.
As I said earlier, having learnt about the Hong Kong version, that would seem very possible to me.
(By the way, of course, we
do
have a PMU in the UK!)
Mike
I would have thought that would encourage you regards having a PMU in the UK.
It does! But not the French model.
As I said earlier, having learnt about the Hong Kong version, that would seem very possible to me.
(By the way, of course, we
do
have a PMU in the UK!)
Mike
I wasn’t suggesting the France model but that should encourage you even more if it’s not much good but still successful.
It need’s people with vision – Are they at the BHA?
Mike
Dont agree ,,,try ringing up any of the bookies on any day and ask to get 25 quid on a 5/1 shot ….you will soon be be begging for PMU
Sure you can get the bet matched on the exchanges …but a share of 5 per cent commission is not a lot ,,,,so not much joy there
Fact is we need a viable alternative , I completely disagree that it would take years ,,,fact is if we banned bookies tomorrow
by saturday …folks would be having a go at PmuLets all get over it please
Big race tonight at Kempton, a 19 grand handicap and Big Baz a "strong" 6/4 fav from 2/1 with the parasites despite being freely available at 3/1 and above on the exchanges, for good money. Returned 3/1 on there.
Come racing and/or get the value with bookmakers
and not a single word about it on the bookmakers channel.Would have been 3/1 on a PMU. Wonder what Simon has to say about it?
Do we really want to continue with this shafting of punters and at end of the day racing?
fact is if we banned bookies tomorrow
by saturday …folks would be having a go at Pmu"We" (whoever that is) have no power to ‘ban bookies’, that would require a repeal of the 1961 Betting & Gaming Act and it’s 1963 follow-up.
There is no political will to do this and furthermore any attempt to do so would end up in court. The MMC would also become heavily involved. You may as well ask to ban butchers or bakers. This is simply NOT going to happen: not now, not next year, not in a hundred years.
Not that banning bookmakers is of any relevance anyway, as all racing would need to do is deny them the rights to bet on the sport.
However to do that, racing’s rulers would have to negotiate the full package of all rights under one body. And we are a million miles from
that
as we stand.
Mike
Just how exciting would it be to see a PMU for all the big races and big healthy pools instead of being constantly fobbed off by bookmakers. They are turning people off the sport.
Over the last few years PMU has started turning people off the sport too… especially since market opening in 2010.
I mean if I look at all the betting possibilities for Saturday, there is the main meeting at Vincennes, and there are also six other meetings but most people just don’t give a damn about them! I wonder what is the point of betting in races which take place at Las Piedras or San Isidro, Maronas, Kenilworth, Southwell? We don’t even know anything about the horses which run in there. In the meantime, there are two meetings at Doncaster and Cheltenham with plenty of interesting races which are far more exciting than all other events we can place a bet on… This strategy didn’t exist in the past and I remember betting on the Hennessy or the Gold Cup a few years ago. Now this time is over.
The guys who lead the PMU are just businessmen and don’t care about anything in horse racing. It’s getting more and more difficult to spend money for them, but that’s my opinion…
A tote monopoly won’t work. People already have the option of betting with the tote and most prefer bookies. We have a different culture to other countries. The problem for racing is not that bookies are turning people off racing, it’s getting them interested in the first place that is the issue. People are more and more betting on things like football (with bookies) and other things such as poker. The young just do not have an interest in racing and a tote monopoly will do nothing to change that.
How will a tote monopoly work ? Are we to have hundreds of shops started up ?
Those who provide GB racing are concerned with how much they get from those who bet on that racing.
Those who bet on GB racing want proper betting opportunities on that racing.
For each group the issue is the existing Tout Monopoly, but in different ways.
The providers of GB racing look at the Levy Consultation Paper that closed to comments on 5 November:
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat … eplacement
and they see in para 2.28 that Gambling Commission licensed betting operator gross profits on all horseracing in 2012/13 were derived:
76pc from betting shops (GBP 698m) – (89pc in 2008/9)
13pc remote betting (118m) – (0pc in 2008/9)
9pc pool betting (84m) – (9pc in 2008/9)
2pc on-course (17m) – (2pc in 2008/9)Noting that 76pc figure they say through their umbrella body the BHA: >> the Touts’ bricks-and-mortar are still by far the largest contributor to us: we need the Touts, even as they abuse us <<.
But those who bet on GB racing say: >> the Touts are squeezing out – by fair means or foul – any punter who knows what they’re doing; they are creating an environment where only losers get to play. We need to be rid of Touts and have a level playing field where punter goes against punter with no middleman rentier<<
The providers of racing through the BHA seem not much to care whence derives their share of the betting pot. Today they’ll deal with Touts; tomorrow they’ll deal with whoever else might control the betting pot. They’ll go with the flow day-to-day as long as they can access the pot.
The bettors on racing who are being squeezed out by the Touts (Touts for this purpose including also leviers of premium-charge) look to alternatives like a PMU where at least they can get a bet on. To the bettors, the Touts are rentier parasites who take money out through no skill: just through rigging the game.
Into this picture now comes change to the Levy.
The government says there has to be some kind of statutory underpinning to ensure that the providers of racing can continue to tap the betting pot.
The question is whether to Reform (Option 1) or Replace (Option 2).
Government wants to get out of the process and – though it says it has no preference – it seems clear that it is much keener on Option 2, Replace.
Within Option 2, government at this stage sees two alternatives (para 5.3):
====================
Statutory underpinning: “rights” or “regulation”?
…the bespoke statutory underpinning could be based around one of two models:
Regulatory.
In this model, bets could not be taken on British Horseracing unless the betting operator was authorised by the governing body (i.e. the British Horseracing Authority) to do so. Non-compliance with the system would be a criminal offence. This model operates in Australia (e.g. authorisation to obtain access to “race fields” data).
Rights-based.
In this model, a property right, directly enforceable by the owner of the right, would be vested in a racing “product”. This would mean that betting operators would be unable to take bets on British horseracing unless granted a licence by the rights owner. This model operates in France (the “right to offer bets”).
=====================The BHA’s position looks assured under the Regulatory Model – so likely no prospect there of relief for the punters (the powerless kids) from the punter-abusing Touts to whom the BHA stands as an also-abused yet clinging and compliant spouse.
The Rights-based Model however could offer relief for punters because it offers Racecourses a way to bypass the BHA and its abused-but-clinging-spouse relationship with the Touts.
But punters’ hopes for a sunnier landscape under Rights-based would depend on the likes of Jockey Club Racecourses (the kindly uncle) seizing the opportunity to shake up the landscape and exercise its rights to take in-house both the race-organising and the betting on those races. That is where a HK-style PMU could have a role to play in GB, since Fred’s monopoly expires soon.
Such action by JCR (and a few colleagues) would mean initial disruption but the pay-off could be a middleman-free GB racing with its destiny wholly in its own hands.
The funding coming via the Touts’ bricks-and-mortar would have either to be captured another way or forgone and replaced – it does seems a high figure given the rate at which commerce is migrating online elsewhere.
Nothing will change overnight, but Levy replacement does seem slowly if surely on the way and it does offer opportunities.
Key to the future is what the Racecourses choose to do once they get a statutory route into the betting pot that does not have to include the Touts as under the present set-up.
(The owners, breeders, licensed persons and regulators are all ultimately followers).
Failing all of which, GB punters can give it all up as a bad job and find a way to commingle into the astronomic HKJC pools !
and not a single word about it on the bookmakers channel.
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