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The trouble is legislation on gambling has been relaxed too far. It seems that various governments are too scared to stand up to the gambling industry and say NO. Probably because far too many MPs have gambling debts conveniently written off, but not forgotten and kept on record as leverage should they not accede to the gambling industry’s demands.
With ref to ProfTrub’s last post, that is because gambling is gambling – you cannot try to put racing on a higher level because you may or may not think you can find an edge through form reading or whatever.
Racing is gambling not just because of so many variables such as human error, effect of the draw, going, course, distance, the incalculable traits that animals can show, the effect of obstacles that can be got wrong by the best of jumpers and other unforseens such as runouts, bringdowns, interference etc and on the top of all this, you have the one big thing that FOBTs don’t have – corruption.
FOBTs may be random and programmed to slowly squeeze your money away but they are not corrupt nor is there an inbuilt acceptance that it is okay for bookies to not run FOBTs on their merits or show them at their best light in order to get the handicap mark down.
The one thing you must do when looking at gamblers, whether they be gamblers in casinos, on FOBTs or at the races, is consider the vast majority who do the same thing – which is lose.
Take away the FOBTs because of gambling problems then racing will surely follow and when gambling on racing is outlawed, racing ceases to exist.
But then again, the government franchises or promotes the lottery which used to be once a week, now it’s twice, with a euromillions thown in again for another go or two and now there’s the health lottery and the postcode lottery, not to mention scratchcards – so if any government minister says they are opposed to gambling, they should be taken as seriously as me saying I am not off to the pub now for a beer or five.
If more people are losing these days it is not because FOBTs exist in my opinion, it is because people are different these days – I don’t think people were encouraged to make claims for everything, max out credit cards and bank loans then get payday loans and visit cash converters in the early eighties, society changed and changed for the worse.
**** happens, but we all still have a choice.
Professorwotsist,
You say gambling on FOBTs is stupid and then ridicule them whilst championing turf and sex…things you admit to being addicted to.
What is stupid and pointless is a matter of subjectivity.
The point is, to me anyways, that FOBNTs are by far the most addictive thing to come into gambling EVER. What will be next if these aren’t stopped?
I understand individuals cannot abnegate their ownership of their problems, but doe that mean we don;t have to protect vulnerable people in society? As they are such dullards and should have a choice?
FOBTs, like any other form of gambling, does nor discriminate with its addiction.
At least in a casino you have to register, can set limits on your debit cards, the roulette has longer between the spins and is definitely random!
If you had someone close to you who was being destroyed by FOBTs but had never shown any signs of addiction to anything else, would you not question the form of gambling they became addicted to?
This is a debate that seems to touch many people and most of us seem to concur that these machines are horrible creations. It’s depressing to think that if they were banned the bookies would no doubt try and create something equally devastating to social well-being.
3500 comments and counting for an article (link in first post on this thread) written in 2005 is pretty thought-provoking.
To me – This thread shows that most of the peeps on here are caring, contemplative creatures offering personal experience and awareness in an intelligent debate.
THAT makes this place a nice place to come.
Zip
One customer who came into my shop to play the FOBTs told me about a project he was part of with some other friends. They wanted to install screens into airplane seats with blackjack, roulette, etc. You’d have to register online pre-flight and you could set a deposit limit on a debit card. However, you could leave your credit card open so you could make continuous deposits.
This is the world we live in.
We should all read Bleak House
and research a modern version no less
where FOBT’S replace the filthy workhouses
so often targeting the young,
the weak and the dispossessed.A research conducted last year
in the neural sciences department
of New York university tested
with MRI imagery two differing brain
responses using specially prepared slot machines.1 deliberative (goal making)
2 automatic or habitual – that associated with addictionThey found quite surprisingly that the two
types of brain activity although quite distinct
were observed in the same area of the brain
known as the ventral striatum which is normally
associated with habits and drug taking.Both forms of thought behaviour
are commonly more intertwined than
previously thought.My own consideration of the research,
distinct from the professors,
is that one form of behaviour might affect
or influence the other particularly
if one of the behaviour thoughts is
more predominant.There are addicvtive tendencies in all
play and reward actions (not just gambling)
but I do believe there is more at work unseen
with these FOBT’s and they tap into
areas, others don’t reach, and many who
amy initially quite innocently pass their
time on them are queuing up like lambs
in a slaughterhouse.BAAAAANED
Bookies leave the sheep alone
Gamble, this kinda **** is way too deep for me. Can you just say ‘they’re bollocks’ or ‘they’re great’ and leave it at that? I’d understand that no problem.
Bookmakers are using sports like Horse Racing and Football to "promote" the FOBT’s, getting staff to push their latest offer, spend a certain amount and get free plays on the latest game on the FOBT.
Just hold on a minute whilst I vomit before quoting the disgusting capitalist former Labour leader Blair’s mantra…Education,Education Education.
When will kids be taught real maths so when they leave school for the final time they’ll recognise the pushers and pimps.
If you had someone close to you who was being destroyed by FOBTs but had never shown any signs of addiction to anything else, would you not question the form of gambling they became addicted to?
That’s something many mothers and fathers might say about horse racing.
Value Is EverythingFactorman, I speak German, have got many German friends, have been there countless times in the past 5 years and own a flat in Berlin which I rent out. You would not believe the difference in education between Germans and the English. It’s just incredible. I started German when I was 13 and by the time I was 16 I spoke at a very intermediate level and still got an A at GCSE. They start English when they’re 13 and by the time they’re 16 they are completely fluent.
Their knowledge of history, maths, geography, general knowledge – there isn’t a single thing that the Germans don’t teach their children better than than the English. Incredible.
And now reading about the HMRC spending £8m to take Redknapp to court to get £50k in unpaid tax, the Crown Prosecution spending £7m on the Kieren Fallon case only to become acquitted and so many other countless things going on. The country is a disaster.
If you had someone close to you who was being destroyed by FOBTs but had never shown any signs of addiction to anything else, would you not question the form of gambling they became addicted to?
That’s something many mothers and fathers might say about horse racing.
I agree, but FOBTs have raised the stakes (pardon the pun) to a new level.
I can’t sit here and pontificate that I know it is the most destructive form of gambling we’ve ever had in the UK as I don’t have proof, but it feels like it. I put £15 into the slots today on an FOBT and walked away with no desire to put any more in. Irrespective of whether you regard me a moron or not I know that if I had played the roulette I could have lost everything in my wallet (£200) in mins. Anything else in the bookies I can walk away from, but if I’m on the slippery slope with the roulette it’s always dangerously close to the edge.
There are politicians (and much more respected members of society) that feel these things are the oft-quoted "crack cocaine of gambling."
Interesting (you can still do the survey) – http://www.gamcare.org.uk/news.php/156/ … of_the_abb
http://www.gamcare.org.uk/news.php/199/ … eking_help
http://www.grasp-group.org.uk/forum/ind … opic=854.0
Zip
Is teaching basic probability theory too much to ask?
How many lessons would it take to teach the law of large numbers? an eternity?
What about games of ruin? how difficult is it to teach in a class room?
Is it beyond the scope of teachers in this country?
Is teaching basic probability theory too much to ask?
I doubt most of the teachers in this country can even spell probability.
How many lessons would it take to teach the law of large numbers? an eternity?
Probably.
What about games of ruin? how difficult is it to teach in a class room?
I’m not joking when I say that Ofsted or some other off-the-wall independent group of dickwads could probably say that by teaching them about gambling, they’re simultaneously encouraging them.
Teachers are so fixated on teaching what’s in the syllabus that they don’t teach the children about real life. What the hell do children know about tax or NI contributions or the NHS or politics or mortgages or loans or whatever else when they finish GCSEs or A-Levels and leave the education system? That’s what more than 60% of them do now, so how do they know how everything works?
Is it beyond the scope of teachers in this country?
Based on the ever-decreasing standards of education in this country, and the dumbing-down of exam papers, I’d say there’s a 95% chance of the answer being in the affirmative.
Professorwotsist,
You say gambling on FOBTs is stupid and then ridicule them whilst championing turf and sex…things you admit to being addicted to.
What is stupid and pointless is a matter of subjectivity.
Only in the pub and internet discussions. In the real world, among what courts of law call ‘right thinking members of the public’ stupid and pointless is pretty obvious.
In my opinion not all addictions are destructive. What is destructive about betting on horses providing you can afford your losses?
FOBT addiction for some people may be harmless enough. For others, like the tearful mug in the link, they are destructive. I say tough tit. It’s the difference between liberty and license. For societies to remain free they must have citizens who can exercise freedom of choice and control themselves.
It all sounds really warm hearted to ban this and ban that. But one ban leads to another.
English history shows us that there is a force of destructive reformist zeal in these islands. One sees it in the reformation, the two hundred years of iconoclasm which followed it; one sees it in the destructive mantras which have torn through British culture for years, in architecture, education, law, health and social cohesion.
In the end you have the tail of legislation and the nanny state wagging the dog of the taxpaying law abiding public. I don’tcare
if FOBTs are banned or not. All I am saying is that the idiots who wreck their finances on them will go and do it on something else. Because they’re idiots.
If you had someone close to you who was being destroyed by FOBTs but had never shown any signs of addiction to anything else, would you not question the form of gambling they became addicted to?
That’s something many mothers and fathers might say about horse racing.
I agree, but FOBTs have raised the stakes (pardon the pun) to a new level.
I can’t sit here and pontificate that I know it is the most destructive form of gambling we’ve ever had in the UK as I don’t have proof, but it feels like it. I put £15 into the slots today on an FOBT and walked away with no desire to put any more in. Irrespective of whether you regard me a moron or not I know that if I had played the roulette I could have lost everything in my wallet (£200) in mins. Anything else in the bookies I can walk away from, but if I’m on the slippery slope with the roulette it’s always dangerously close to the edge.
There are politicians (and much more respected members of society) that feel these things are the oft-quoted "crack cocaine of gambling."
Interesting (you can still do the survey) – http://www.gamcare.org.uk/news.php/156/ … of_the_abb
http://www.gamcare.org.uk/news.php/199/ … eking_help
http://www.grasp-group.org.uk/forum/ind … opic=854.0
Zip
Seriously? They’re just slot machines.
Prof,
Not so easy to be dogmatic about what "right-thinking people" means…
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s … lic+define]%23&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
You say: "In my opinion not all addictions are destructive. What is destructive about betting on horses providing you can afford your losses?"
Err, helloooo….do you really need to be told that betting on horses can be addictive? You seem so smart.
I do not agree banning FOBTs would lead to banning other forms of gambling. OK, it may set a precedent for banning a similarly destructive creation – such a bad thing?
I think this whole "freedom of the citizen" argument is missing the point.
FOBTs are a growing cancer that rivens England’s social fabric.
Should we legalise all drugs and prostitution, Prof? I just want to be sure where you stand on the liberalisation matter.
You believe the addicts would always find something else to be addicted to. I don’t.
If someone is introduced to cocaine, tries it a few times and then becomes addicted, would they have found something else if not introduced to that cocaine?
If you do, fair enough.
Personally, I don’t regard addicts, whatever their addiction may be, as idiots.
Zip
Ps, MissW – these terminals are meant to be random, unlike most slot machines (I’m not sure there really are any random slot machines?) and the stakes of the roulette makes slots small beer – £100 max for a 5 second spin on the wibbly wobbly wheel of death.
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