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I have just read the above and realize that I have not quite got the hang of this new iPod touch thingy.
I do think MJ deserves the epithet "great."
How many more genuine superstars will this world see?
I enjoy the quality MJ gags that are inevitably surfacing.
The irony is, IMHO, he is no child molester. I side with the others that say he was tormented. I think he was a child in a man’s body. That does not excuse some of his bizarre actions, and it certainly does not excuse sleeping (platonically) with children. His life was never really his own from such a tender age and with all the glory came the weight of being unable to truly escape the glare of fame.
My last memory of this whole moment in time is the news clip I saw tonight of people dancing and singing Michael Jackson songs together in Trafalgar Square, London.
There were peeps of all colours, religions and persuasions having a great time.
It took MJ to do that, if only for 24 hrs….now that shows how great he must be.
Zip
…So it’s probably a bit late for any jokes about the late Dr Vincent O’Brien then? or anyone else in the racing fraternity that croaks it in the non to distant future?
Exactly what
is
the point of leaving jokes about dead people on message boards? It’s hardly the same as seeing your mates roll about laughing is it? Don’t get me wrong, I’ve laughed at the sickest of jokes, but only ever around friends or when receiving a text. Token jokes on forums are just so lame and I expected better of this one. God forbid that Claire Baldings condition should ever take a turn for the worse.
I imagine the sort of people that do the ‘dead people’ jokes on forums would kill for laugh outside of their cyber world and probably have no sense of humour whatsoever. I just don’t see the point . Sorry.
Excellent post by Onthesteal who is right. So is Bob Wharton and Zarkava with their posts.
I expected better from this forum than some of the moronic comments on here. What would be the reaction if Claire Balding died of her present illness and sick jokes were posted on here including some with references to her sexuality. Would it be acceptable? If the answer is yes then I despair. If the answer is no then why is it acceptable for sick jokes to be made about Michael Jackson?
Some things in life are not funny and child abuse is one of them. I have not suffered from it and neither have any of my friends to my knowledge but it can devastate the victims of it and ruin their lives.
Anybody who makes so called jokes about child abuse or laughs at a joke about child abuse is an insensitive, shallow, immature twat.
I am not a fan of Michael Jackson’s music and do not have any of his albums. If one of his songs is played on the radio then I don’t turn it off but I don’t turn the volume up either. He was massive in the early 80’s. He was an icon and one of the superstars of the music industry.
As for him being a genius? I think of geniuses to be very intelligent people such as Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawking and not musicians or painters etc but it’s all subjective.
Unfortunately, the congregation of people is just a sign of the ‘celebrity crazy world’ we live in. I am sure these people almost feel they become celebrities themselves for a few moments. Pretty sad in my opinion but a trend that appears likely to continue.
Is the question so often asked ‘where were you when ******* died’ of any relevance whatsoever?
As regards The Jacksons I thought they were by far the poorest of the successful Motown acts. Always thought it was significant when looking around for Motown complilations that there were very few Jacksons tracks included.
I can’t be bothered to look up the credits on Jackson’s songs so I bow to the greater knowledge above. However, I watched Newsnight’s review last night and they seemed to be giving plenty of credit to a British writer (Templeton?) and Quincy Jones. Whatever Jackson’s contribution to the lyrics they are hardly Leonard Cohen are they?
I see his legacy purely as a dance artist. It is up to you whether you believe his influence has good or bad. Personally, I wouldn’t contemplate going to any performance where the ‘spectacle’ outweighs the songs.
.. can hardly believe he’s dead .. omg!
Am I the only person who noticed that, for the last ten-years, he looked very, very ill?
As for his death, I find it hard to care – he wasn’t even my favourite peadophile.
I think ‘Jacko’ got away with a lot due to this ‘he’s just a big kid’/Neverland nonsense. Let’s face it: his dance-routine consisted of him grabbing his crotch every two-seconds (when he was touring, I remember complaints that it was too sexualized); when his home was raided during one of the trials, he had a massive collection of porn; he was married to a grown-up woman.
So clearly he wasn’t this grown-up kid who has never had an impure thought. He was a sexualized man… a man who built a theme-park in his garden to attract children and then had them sleep in his bed.
In a way, that’s pretty awesome though: compared to normal peadophiles he was like a kind of James Bond-villian – but without hiding underneath the Earth’s crust or something: doing it all while being one of the most famous/photographed men in the World. You’ve got to admire that.
Michael Jackson: ‘The People’s Peadophile’.
Quite a good read on the Michael Jackson story from James Delingpole in The Times today:-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6586367.ece
(This is by me by the way:-)
Only children bullied into listening to Jacko’s second rate songs by their dominant Jackson-loving parents will know anything about his music in 20 / 30 years time (much like Presley now). 99.9% of all pop music is transient. So, Jacko wrote his own songs. Wow – that doesn’t make him unique or especially gifted.
My generation thought The Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Led Zep etc. were the kings.
The generation before that, Presley, Bill Haley etc.
The generation before that Bing Crosby
The generation before that, – Cole Porter, Glenn MIller.
The truth is that, in time most of the stuff, even their very best stuff, will rarely be heard. Perhaps only being dusted off to accompany some history programme about the pertinent years. (Although I must add that. Cole Porter’s lyrics and melodies knock Jackos and all the others I’ve mentioned into a cocked-hat; but then musical taste is a personal thing.)
In the (musical) great scheme of things Jackson was a big name but not a big talent. Some on here may find it hard to swallow that your teenage hero is actually second rate (and that’s flattering him), but it’s true. I now accept that many of the soccer stars and jockeys that were my favourites in mmy youth were, on reflection, not that good.l. Jacko fans must learn a sense of perspective, and that’s something that seldom comes to those wearing short trousers.I guess the 109 million or so people that bought Thriller were wrong then.
Look, we all know art is subjective – but I cannot see how people can argue that he is not a superstar. Genius is debatable, but in music terms, IMHO I think he is. I’m not even an MJ fan and have not purchased one of his tunes.
As regards the paedophile thing…
It’s funny how the people that are quick to say we should not make sick jokes about Jacko are also quick to label him a paedophile.
So that’s certain is it, he WAS a paedophile?
AFAIK, he was cleared of any accusations, or often settled pre-court with a wad of cash for the "victims."
Make of that what you will.
But no smoke without fire or innocent until proven guilty?
Zip
SwallowCottage wrote:
"Anybody who makes so called jokes about child abuse or laughs at a joke about child abuse is an insensitive, shallow, immature twat. "
Have we met?
Zip
Jacko was never convicted as a pedophile and therefore anyone referring to him as such is out of order, in my book. I agree with zip on that.
It’s worth bearing in mind that the parents of the kid that was taken to Neverland and made those allegations against him have profited from it massively .. they couldn’t get their boy their quick enough.
It was quite funny watching all of his homies in Indiana saying what a good brother he was .. I got the impression he wasn’t too keen on being black.
Per Zippy:-
guess the 109 million or so people that bought Thriller were wrong then.
I’m not saying buying a Jackson record is/was "wrong"; what makes you think that?
That 109 million bought them still doesn’t mean though that his music will last beyond the years of those whose generation he represented..(More than 109 million pot-noodles have been sold worldwide, but that doesn’t make them haute-cuisine, does it?) I’ve bought plenty of second-rate albums over the years ; haven’t we all. Perhaps Jackson’s marketing/PR was so much better than most. Crikey, PR and marketing can even induce some Homo-Sapiens to buy rap music!
That he may be the top-selling album artist is rather meaningless. He peaked at a time when album sales and the number of people able to buy the was at its pinnacle. Fewer people in, say, Bing Crosby’s days had the money to buy recod players and records and nowadays the younger generation have other means of obtaining music. Even so, he did achieve it, so credit to him for that.
I’m not criticising Jackson, only the over-the-top coverage given by the media and the way-way over-the-top status some accord to his music. I’ve no opinion one way or the other as to his sexual predelictions. I rather suspect he was just naive rather than perverted and got (financially) shafted by the kid involved in the scandal.
Insomniac, I have no probs with peeps criticising MJ – this forum advocates freedom of speech, after all.
I just wonder about the reasoning.
In terms of superstars: who were better than Jackson during his "reign" – would you care to name a few?
As for saying Jacko had the perfect period in history to exploit record sales. Would it not be fair to say there are counter-arguments, too?
The vinyl record had no rivals during Bing’s time. Jacko had CD’s and tape and the rise of the net and downloads (towards the end of his time, admittedly).
There were also more artists producing music independently and getting heard in the 80,s 90’s and 00’s than when Bing was at his peak (1920’s – 1950’s). (I’m assuming that last point, please disabuse me if it’s tosh)
Was Crosby a better dancer?
Zip
Some fair points zippy – and I’m sure you’re right that Jacko’s a better dancer than Crosby. (I’m no big fan of Bing Crosby by the way.)
That vinyl may have been the only medium by which the masses could buy music in Crosby’s time may well be true. What is also true though is that the number of households ABLE to buy 1) A Record Player and 2) Table to afford record purchases with any regular frequency was much, much smaller than in the 70’s and onwards. Therefore all recording artists prior to the age of mass record-player ownership were at a disadvantage re. number of sales.
Were there any better than Jacko during his reign? Perhaps not. Even so, that has to be qualified by saying that (in horse racing terms) his may have been an inferior crop. Just because Sir Percy won a Derby, doesn’t necessarily mean he was oustanding when compared with others who have won the race. Similarly, I would say (and again this a totally personal), when it came to writing melodies and lyrics for "popular songs", Cole Porter was vastly superior to Jackson, Lennon, McCartney etc. He was the "Sea-Bird", Jackson and the others were also-rans in comparison. But, as I say, that’s just my opinion and others will disagree. (And, I gues Porter couldn’t dance .)If I am not mistaken in the days of Bing Crosby, Cole Porter et al sales of sheet music also counted towards sales as most homes had a piano.
I think it is difficult to compare anything across generations, even moreso something as subjective as music.
Had the internet been around in Victorian times I am sure there would have been equally passionate debate concerning the relative merits of Haydn, Handle and Sullivan.
My taste in music, for example, is very eclectic – everything from baroque through to rock, via opera, broadway shows old and new.
How the hell do you compare those to say which is best?
Insomniac, Paul,
Fair points, guys.
It is difficult to be dogmatic about art, but I guess that’s why it makes for a decent debate.
Even so we’re not fans of Whacko and Bing (not sure if you are, Paul), we’re still doing our best to defend them in the court of The Racing Forum
And I know it’s naughty, but I saw this pic and it is mildly amusing (apologies in advance for all the insensitive joke haters).
http://www.jokesplusplus.com/wp-content … g-nose.jpg
Anyways, keep enjoying the tunes of your choice everyone.
What a cultured bunch we are
Zip
Ps,
Where’s Fist of Fury..wonder what he’d think…?I think the comments about humour show that it’s purely a matter of opinion and not a crime against anything.
The pop world lost him as an entertainer many years ago and not when he died as he’s been capable of nothing for a long time.
As a person, he may not have been convicted of anything but he wasn’t right either.
This forum can be funny in it’s criticism of people living, particularly those in racing, sometimes which gets very personal and out of order, the wind of righteousness and correctness are very inconsistent on this forum imo.
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