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Achievement – that’s how I measure a horses ability. Inglis Drever became the first horse to win three World Hurdles at the age of nine. He beat the best of his generation for over three years and has held his form for nearly five years. That’s a legend.
The manner of a horses victory is irrelevant. HORSE A has the same level of ability as HORSE B, yet beats the same level of opposition by an economic two lengths, compared to the more flamboyant HORSE B, who defeats the same opposition by ten lengths. HORSE B will more than likely record a higher rating.
There’s no foolproof system to rating horses – just look at the range of ratings that TRF members have calculated for the respective performances of Master Minded and Denman, to name just a couple. There’s just too many variables and componenets involved in horse racing to give any horse just one ‘official’ rating. You would need to give every horse an official rating for ground, distance, course etc etc.
Master Minded was the most impressive winner at this years Festival and Denman’s victory was sensational, but I’d like to see them perform to the same level over a number of years to consider them ‘great’. Both have the ability, but only time will tell.
It seems that the word great is being tagged to any horse who wins one Championship race impressively. For ID it seems, five years of consistency, three Grade One triumphs, three record breaking Championship wins and a further nine Grade Two victories, beating the very best just isn’t enough.
Gingertipster said that ‘greatness’ should be measured in ability, rather than durability. Durability plays a bigger role than you think in determining a horses ability…
[b:1mqazcxd]“As with human athletes, the ultimate edge of the equine athlete may not lie so much in the physical ability to avoid exhaustion as in the mental ability to ignore it.” [/b:1mqazcxd]
At this stage Moscow Flyer is greater than MM because he did it year-in, year-out but would he have beaten MM last Thus?
I’m not sure he would have done.
I rate the Moscow/Azerty/Well Chief Tingle Creek as possibly the best race I have ever seen but I honestly believe that we saw something very very special last week.
The Nicholls camp are talking about him as being better than Azerty as well so that says it all.
but I’d like to see them perform to the same level over a number of years to consider them ‘great’
Maybe and depends how you define "great" but Kauto’s season last year would surely be enough for anyone?
At this stage Moscow Flyer is greater than MM because he did it year-in, year-out but would he have beaten MM last Thus?
I’m not sure he would have done.
I rate the Moscow/Azerty/Well Chief Tingle Creek as possibly the best race I have ever seen but I honestly believe that we saw something very very special last week.
The Nicholls camp are talking about him as being better than Azerty as well so that says it all.
I don’t think one performance thrashing a good horse is anywhere near enough to suggest you could beat a great one.
Paul Nicholls also thought Thisthatandtother was a better novice than Azertyuiop, and that Twist Magic and Masterminded couldn’t be split, so i wouldn’t read too much in to that statement personally.
Shame VPU didn’t stand up in last years Game Spirit, i think Well Chief would have beaten him a similar margin to Masterminded and things would officially have had better perspective (all presumptive on my part of course).
It’s all about opinions and I just think that this Master Minded is something else.
We all know that 5yos don’t win the Champion Chase never mind by 19L on the bridle! Unlike Hawk Wing, he now needs to go out and do it again though to be compared with the all time greats.
It’s good to hear that we might get another look at him at Punchestown…
i think Well Chief would have beaten him a similar margin to Masterminded
I just cant see how that can be assumed at all. All WC ended up beating was the subsequently declining Ashley Brook. It was a good looking performance but thats all we know about it…
Yes, declining subsequently. No reason to assume it was a substandard performance that race, the money was down on Ashley Brook that day, i have admitted its all presumptions / assumptions, surely there is an element of that in all things rating connected.
Perhaps in a few races the same comments you make regarding Ashley Brook could be levelled at VPU. All i’m saying is until the proof is in the pudding its dangerous to band these huge > Moscow Flyer etc ratings about.
VPU has shown nothing like the decline (if at all…) that has been apparent in Ashley Brook. In fact i think VPU’s form is consistent with last year where his QM chase win is not really all that strong
And at the time of Well Chiefs Game Spirit how evident was it that Ashley Brook had declined? Judging by hurdles re-appearance and the market that day, it wasn’t evident.
You are assuming this years loss of form of Ashley Brook had already started then, i would disagree and opine that its Ashley Brooks falls this season which have destroyed his confidence and preceded, or at the very least accelerated, his regression.
I agree with you entirely that the rot has set in with him since his two falls and no earlier – probably only since the second fall, actually, as I think he was still travelling kindly enough in the Old Roan when departing. His Fontwell "effort" was especially sad to witness.
gc
Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.
Maybe Ashley Brook is very tricky to train but I don’t think his trainer has excelled himself either.
Why wasn’t he stepped up to 3m at some stage?
Nickname is another one who this applies to. After not getting his ground over here for the big 2m races for the last few years, why on earth didn’t he run in the Tingle Creek, Victor Chandler & Queen Mother this year when conditions would have suited?
At the time I thought Well Chief ran somewhere near his best, taking Ashley Brook as the form horse. But it is possible Ashley Brook went off too fast that day, 1 3/4 mile pace, and weakened late on. Well Chief being held up off that pace may have been flattered.
But Well Chief was one of the "great threesome". That Tingle Creek was the best NH race I have seen.
Ginge
Value Is EverythingAnd take Voy Por Ustedes out of the race, Gingertipster, and Fair Along won having beaten Twist Magic by 17l…it’s a nonsense statement which bares little relevance to the race as it isn’t an accurate reflection of a) the actual result and b) how the race was run.
Whether Voy Por Ustedes ran up to form, I don’t know, but I suspect he’s capable of a little better given the state of the ground and the stamina apparent in Master Minded’s pedigree. That said, VPU is hardly out of the top drawer and has always been said to have been the best of a fairly weak bunch (a 2.5l victory over Dempsey is hardly earth-shattering). And, for what it’s worth, I think Master Minded will be considerably better over further than 2m.
LGR,
If Fair Along had won the race we would still have had Schindlers Hunt in the race 1 length behind. It would be folly to believe Schindlers Hunt improved at the same rate as Fair Along. Far easier to believe Twist Magic ran below form TM did not look the same horse. Also if this wer the case the time would be considerably slower. Master Minded’s time was excellant, far better than any other horse on the day. The point is Voy Por Ustedes, Fair Along and Schindlers Hunt finished at intevals very close to what I would expect in a truly run race (given their form beforehand). With Fair Along a little below form due to his poor start.
Did all three run to a similar amount below their previous form?
Why was the time so fast if it was not because of an exceptional performance?You are right VPU is not out of the top drawer but he does not have to be. If he were rated as good as Moscow Flyer then a 19 length beating would almost be Arkle class. Master Minded is no Arkle….. yet. it is possible MM will be better over further but unlikely. Has won over further but has improved when stepped back in distance. Shows so much speed.
Ginge
Value Is EverythingI think Moscow Flyer, Azertyuiop & Well Chief would have all been capable of beating VPU in the same way as Master Minded did. So I wouldn’t want to to hail MM as way superior to them after just one performance. However, being only a five year old MM has plenty of time to go on and prove himself one of the greats. I mean at this point in time it’s difficult to see any horse in training capable of giving him a race.
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