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Neither is constant self-congratulation and the preaching of the ‘correct’ use of the term ‘value’.
Each to their own.
Bosranic,
We get to the question:
What is greatness?
In my opinion "greatness" is putting up a great performance, quality wise. That to me is a horse capable of a Timeform rating of over 140 on the flat, or 180 over jumps.
Kauto Star, Master Minded, Moscow Flyer are "great".
Inglis Drever has never put up a performance of "greatness".
However emotional it may have been, beating Kasbah Bliss a length is not "greatness".
Ginge
If that’s the case Ginge I would love to you to show me race where Moscow Flyer put up a better performance than Ingis Drever did when he beat Barcouda.
Rating are a guide but they can be miles of the mark. Moscow Flyer won his races by a hard fought length or so…..He won a lot more races at long odds on against moderate to very poor horses………..never once do I remember him leaving a high class field of horses trailing in his wake. He was very good but a wokmanlike horse there have, been more than a few better than him.
How can you possible describe Master Minded as great at this stage of his career……..he’s beat one horse yesterday if you analyze the race properly……the same horse he beat the time before…2 pieces of form against the same horse doesn’t make you great..until there is further evidence he is potentially a great horse nothing more nothing less……..ok the first 5y0 to win a QMCC but he has to prove he can do the same against the new batch of 2 milers who will challenge him for the title next season. If you asked me if I thought he could become the best 2 miler ever I would say yea….. but that doesn’t make it so.
It’s took a long time for Kato Star to become the great horse he is today you don’t get to his level based on one victory. No one said VPU was a great horse and his form this year has been shockin for a QMCC beaten by Kalca Mome, Twist Magic, won a poor race when 2/5 then beaten by MM not exactly rock solid form going into the race.
You want to use Great talk Golden Miller, Arkle, Flying Bolt, Kauto Star, Persian War Bula Istabraq and Dunkirk who is till regarded by many as the best 2 miler of all time,
MM has a lot more to do before he will be held in such high ragard as those
That was a "great" performance; surely the horse qualifies for "greatness" if he keeps reproducing it in the future? I hope he does.
Reminds me of Denmans performance in the 2006 Challow Novices’ Hurdle at Cheltenham. Different type of race and opposition I know but both performances look special. Similar superlatives used after both performances also.
Bosranic,
We get to the question:
What is greatness?
In my opinion "greatness" is putting up a great performance, quality wise. That to me is a horse capable of a Timeform rating of over 140 on the flat, or 180 over jumps.
Kauto Star, Master Minded, Moscow Flyer are "great".
Inglis Drever has never put up a performance of "greatness".
However emotional it may have been, beating Kasbah Bliss a length is not "greatness".
Ginge
Inglis Drever is a high class and very, very consistent horse in his conditions. He’s not a brilliant horse but that consistency at a high level wins him races because he’s just that bit better than everything else and he doesn’t run below form.
Master Minded yesterday put up a brilliant performance but one brilliant performance doesn’t make you a great horse or a legend ask Arazi ask Hawk Wing both put up one fantastic performance but they’ll never be a Mill Reef or a Brigadier Gerard.
Inglis Drever will go down as a great stayer. Kauto Star has won enough top races in various conditions to ensure he goes down as a "great".
Master Minded – not yet but he has incredible ability and it may be just a matter of time. His performance yesterday was very special.
Master Minded put up a sensational performance for a five year old, but let’s see if he can win the next two runnings of the race – like Badsworth Boy did in the mid 80s – who lest we forget, was equally impressive when winning his QM Champion chases.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
So, to sum up. the performance was great but the horse isn’t yet………..I can live with that.
Master Minded hadn’t really crossed my radar until I saw him in the pre-parade ring at Newbury before the Game Spirit and when I did he took my breath away (cue for a song) he is such a looker.
His performance matched his looks.
I wasn’t surprised at all that he won yesterday but the style with which he achieved the victory will last forever.
The thing that impressed me most was his jumping, he met every one perfectly and just stepped over them, reminded me of Crisp’s round at Aintree.
It is hard to believe that before yesterday’s race people had concerns about his jumping, and going by Nicholls’ comments straight after the race he might have been one of those.
If he was a bad jumper he has certainly achieved a steep learning-curve and it says a lot for the schooling he has received from the team at Ditcheat.
Colin
Intersting list of post race quotes in todays racing post article entitled "ASTONISHING"
ALAN KING – "That was an awesome performance from the winner and I take my hat off to him"
TOM TAAFFE – "I have never seen a horse in all my time coming to cheltenham that was more impressive. People have to sit up and realise what they have seen here – that is the single most impressive performance I’ve seen in a Queen Mother Champion Chase"
HENRY DALY – "That was extraordinary – basically by the top of the hill it was time to raise the white flag for the others. I have never seen a better performance in a Queen Mother Champion Chase."
PETER SCUDAMORE – "That was one of the great performances, and when people mention great horses in the furture he will be one of them."
ANDREW THORNTON – "That was awesome. The second horse has ran his race, but Master Minded has just killed them – it just doesn’t happen like that. That was breathtaking."
Master Minded put up a sensational performance for a five year old, but let’s see if he can win the next two runnings of the race – like Badsworth Boy did in the mid 80s – who lest we forget, was equally impressive when winning his QM Champion chases.
You once said Denman reminds yu of Arkle "H" don’t you think MM is much more like him…..he’s definately got the gears rather than just one burst of acceleration…. he seemd to just keep changing up a notch until he hits top speed in a very similar way Arkle did. It’s like he beats off the opposition in second gear and then chages into 3rd, not content with going clear he seemed to change up again and before you know it he’s gone 15 20 lengths clear. Can’t see him doing that over 3 miles he’s way too fast at 2miles but I can’t remember any horse bar "Himself" that could do that……….just hope he can do it again.
Master Minded put up a sensational performance for a five year old, but let’s see if he can win the next two runnings of the race – like Badsworth Boy did in the mid 80s – who lest we forget, was equally impressive when winning his QM Champion chases.
You once said Denman reminds yu of Arkle "H" don’t you think MM is much more like him…..he’s definately got the gears rather than just one burst of acceleration…. he seemd to just keep changing up a notch until he hits top speed in a very similar way Arkle did. It’s like he beats off the opposition in second gear and then chages into 3rd, not content with going clear he seemed to change up again and before you know it he’s gone 15 20 lengths clear. Can’t see him doing that over 3 miles he’s way too fast at 2miles but I can’t remember any horse bar "Himself" that could do that……….just hope he can do it again.
I said Denman reminded me of Mill House (not Arkle). No horse I have seen reminds me of Arkle. Not even Master Minded – who reminds me more of Brigadier Gerard.
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i still find it mad that people on here dont think Inglis Drever is great, the first horse to win 3 stayers hurdles and some think he’s not great cause he didnt win by 20 lengths
how many horses come back form a year off and keep that level of form into a champioship race? who knows if he didnt get that injury he might be able to win by 20 lengths but to say he is not great……………..Master Minded put up a sensational performance for a five year old, but let’s see if he can win the next two runnings of the race – like Badsworth Boy did in the mid 80s – who lest we forget, was equally impressive when winning his QM Champion chases.
You once said Denman reminds yu of Arkle "H" don’t you think MM is much more like him…..he’s definately got the gears rather than just one burst of acceleration…. he seemd to just keep changing up a notch until he hits top speed in a very similar way Arkle did. It’s like he beats off the opposition in second gear and then chages into 3rd, not content with going clear he seemed to change up again and before you know it he’s gone 15 20 lengths clear. Can’t see him doing that over 3 miles he’s way too fast at 2miles but I can’t remember any horse bar "Himself" that could do that……….just hope he can do it again.
I said Denman reminded me of Mill House (not Arkle). No horse I have seen reminds me of Arkle. Not even Master Minded – who reminds me more of Brigadier Gerard.
That’s official then from now on he shall be known as "Brigadier Arkle"
I happen to do think he’s awesome maybe he is going to be known as the best ever……he certainly looks the part even more so that Badsworth Boy did when he came on the scene but it’s so easy to get carried away.
I don’t think people are being fair to Inglis Drever. He is a great 3 mile hurdler and probably one of the best ever seen but how often are 3 mile hurdlers flashy individuals like BJK eg. There make up is usually different to horses like Master Minded and they are less attractive to the eye IMO
You very seldom see them quickening up like Nijinsky…….they are stayers not sprinters.Inglis Drever did the business and did it in style and who’s to say he might not do it again if kept in training. Only Golden Miller has won more than 3 times in the top class at the Festival in 70 years.
Ingis Drever just being in the position that he could be only the second horse in history to break the "3 Barrier" is a massive achievment on it’s own
People should give credit wher credit is due. Great Horse
Stayers are just as (if not more) capable of winning by a long way. Inglis Drever has never done so. He can not be rated any better than he has shown. Great horses are capable of great form, MUCH better than other horses. Inglis Drever is capable of beating the best but not by very far and therefore can not be rated as a GREAT. He has great qualities, durability, reliability but that does not equal greatness. GREAT form = GREATNESS.
Ginge
Value Is EverythingInglis Drever is capable of beating the best but not by very far and therefore can not be rated as a GREAT.
Ginge
By that logic, a horse like Nijinsky, for example, cannot be considered great. Right?
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Stayers are just as (if not more) capable of winning by a long way. Inglis Drever has never done so. He can not be rated any better than he has shown. Great horses are capable of great form, MUCH better than other horses. Inglis Drever is capable of beating the best but not by very far and therefore can not be rated as a GREAT. He has great qualities, durability, reliability but that does not equal greatness. GREAT form = GREATNESS.
Ginge
It happens now and then that stayers win by a long way no one is disputing that, but which horse was regarded by many as the greatest staying hurdler of all time?
Save you the trouble……..Baracouda was……….he won the stayers twice but by the shortest of distances imaginable..sure he won lots of races 14 to be precise but 11 of them, some by long margins, were against horses who had no right on the same race track as him…….was a very poor lot back then until Cheltenham came along once a year.
He started at unbackable odds in most of his races against horses that wouldn’t be sighted at Cheltenham.
Inglis Drever is a whole different ball game…he’s has a much tougher time of it than Baracouda ever had. He’s started odds on only 4 times in his life and won 17 races against much better horses than Baracouda did during his bum a month campaign.
Not only that he has won 3 stayers hurdles beating Baracouda himslelf, Might Man and now Kasbah Bliss….if there has been a btter staying hurdler than him pray tell……….give me the name of this wonder horse who went to Cheltenham won three stayers hurdles in the fashion of Master Minded.
Greatness is achieved in many different ways……if Ingis Drever could talk he would say "I did it my way" The fact is he’s probably one of if not thee best staying hurdlers of all time………I have never backed the horse in my life but hell I give credit where credit is due.
You come on here say he’s not great but can’t come up with anything better…………just talk for the sake of talk if you ask me.
Inglis Drever is capable of beating the best but not by very far and therefore can not be rated as a GREAT.
Ginge
By that logic, a horse like Nijinsky, for example, cannot be considered great. Right?
that depends how great the very best are that he beat! do you follow?
i’d suggest the best Inglis drever has beaten are an aged baracouda (when 9yo and 10yo, not at his best but still highly capable) and mighty man who comprehensively turned the tables next run in more favourable conditions.
Roland…..No doubt you are correct that Baracouda was past his best even though he was considered the banker of the meeting by many. That had more to do with JP being the owner than it did with the horses form going into the race. He won two races before going to Chelters against a fairly moderate horse and was far from impresive.
But Inglies Drever was only just coming of age he won a really bad Kingwell Hurdle in his last race before beating Baracouda. It was also the first timein his life he had tackled 3 miles and in the end won by a very easy 3 lengths.
Sorry to be so blunt but the Aintree form when Mighty Man won stunk to the high heavens and Inglis Drever was obviousy way over the top. Lots of horses trained to the minute to win at Cheltenham do the same thing………hit their peak run brilliantly at Cheltenham and then get suprisingly beaten at Aintree……Pridwell beat Istabraq….hardly reliable form…….it’s not like the turnaround was a couple of lengths it was over 20 lengths…what do you mean by more favourable conditions? Might Man was every but as good on good to soft as he was on good he won on it several times and that year at Cheltenham there wasn’t a great deal of cut in the ground anyway. Perhaps you mean the sharper track but as it has got less to do with staying than any other track in the country bar Kempton it’s hardly relevant.
You couldn’t consider the horse to have been lucky in any of his Cheltenham wins, he’s deserved all three in the same way he deserves the title Great IMO…..not many stayers do as well as he has and he may not be finished yet.
how many horses come back form a year off and keep that level of form into a champioship race? who knows if he didnt get that injury he might be able to win by 20 lengths but to say he is not great……………..
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