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It was the Arkle Grimes in 08…..
Then had consecutive failures at Cheltenham in the Ryaniar….World Hurlde and then Gold Cup….
Think he’s always showed his best form with a bit of give in the ground so don’t buy into the argument that HJ held him back and if he’d been with Nicholls from day one he’d be a multiple Gold Cup winner…..
Think if the ground is anywhere near gd come Cheltenham that finishing burst will come too late and a good 3 or 4 will be away and gone…..
Great to see the horse running so well again though….always been one i’ve followed from early on….
Looked at his record on TRP lat night just to remind myself. First few seasons were full of wins with an occasional second. Then he lost his way for a while. Maybe, during the Kauto/Denman years it wasn’t worth contesting Gold Cups, and his jumping didn’t seem fast and accurate enough at the time. Perhaps a change of scenery would have helped back then? Going to dip back into his record and see which horses he beat in his bumpers. Wonder what PN has changed about his training. Perhaps only gets a polo when he’s been round a circuit twice and overtaken other horses? No matter how many great horses PN has trained [and I’ve never been his greatest fan] his handling of TB has made me realise why he has been champion trainer for so long. Would love to be a fly on the wall at the PN stable.
Whatever the merits of their rides, none of the jockeys was to blame. Tidal Bay is a faster horse and superior athlete.
There’s not a doubt in my mind that the fastest horse and best athlete in the race was Flemenstar. The way he jumps and travels is a joy to behold
In a way. the ‘talking horses’ proved themselves yesterday Grimes. Flemesntar had everyone else absolutely roasted until the last, and when his stamina seemingly emptied his will to win kicked in. First Lieutenant showed why he’s been rated so highly by many on here, as he’s a much better horse on good ground, and whatever race he runs in in March he’s a player. And Sir Des Champs made an error down the back that would have put most out out of the race, and jumped poorly on the whole, yet still got to within half a length of winning.
It was a great race, at least on a par with the finish of the Ryanair at Cheltenham.
It was a great race, at least on a par with the finish of the Ryanair at Cheltenham.
Better
Looks likely he will be given another shot at 3 mile which iny opinion is only fair.
Altough would welcome a crack at SS though thats no good for my AP bet.
Tidal Bay’s transformation is almost exclusively due to his improved jumping.
He doesn’t just jump now – he wings ’em!
Too often in the past he has found it hard work staying in touch over a variety of distances due to ‘bunny-hopping’ his fences. Now he has the ability to wing his fences, Tidal Bay can stay competitive instead of becoming frustrated and sulky at the back of the field.
Paul Nicholls has clearly found the key to him at home, too – he doesn’t like anybody(!) – and perhaps that goes hoof in hoof with Tidal Bay’s enjoyment of racing.
Of course, Ruby has built up quite a relationship with the old bugger. If he rides Silviniaco Conti at The Festival, how will that influence his chances?
In a way. the ‘talking horses’ proved themselves yesterday Grimes. Flemesntar had everyone else absolutely roasted until the last, and when his stamina seemingly emptied his will to win kicked in. First Lieutenant showed why he’s been rated so highly by many on here, as he’s a much better horse on good ground, and whatever race he runs in in March he’s a player. And Sir Des Champs made an error down the back that would have put most out out of the race, and jumped poorly on the whole, yet still got to within half a length of winning.
As you know they pay out on the line, not the last fence. All the pre-race talk was of two leading Gold Cup contenders – Flemenstar now looks a non-stayer and consequently there is a big question mark over his actual participation and Sir Des Champs seems to have developed a jumping problem and on yesterday’s performance is now behind a 12 year-old in the Gold Cup pecking order. Worryingly for his chances the extra distance in March should benefit the older horse even more. We knew beforehand that both Flemenstar and Sir Des Champs were good horses but their Gold Cup aspirations were diminished not enhanced yesterday.
Flemenstar’s Gold Cup aspirations were not enhanced Stilvi, but in my opinion his reputation was. He jumped and traveled like the best horse in the race and really looks top class after that run.
Sir Des Champs behind a 12 year old in the Gold Cup pecking order now? Maybe for you, but in that case Tidal Bay is ahead of pretty much everything bar Bobs Worth.
Both horses proved that they are up there with the best around, even when things don’t go to plan or don’t suit.
Sir Des Champs behind a 12 year old in the Gold Cup pecking order now? Maybe for you, but in that case Tidal Bay is ahead of pretty much everything bar Bobs Worth.
Yes, assuming they get there in good form I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t get a repeat of the Newbury result. Not out of the question that it could be a repeat of the 1-2-3. I don’t think the likes of Long Run and Silviniaco Conti are good enough.
if Flemenstar winds in the Hennessy Gold Cup then with slightly better ground at Chelt would they try it ? I know I would – hes yet to run @ chelt and might improve a fair bit given the way he travels. More chance there than over 2m on possibly better ground vs SS … I know which one I would try
if Flemenstar winds in the Hennessy Gold Cup then with slightly better ground at Chelt would they try it ? I know I would – hes yet to run @ chelt and might improve a fair bit given the way he travels. More chance there than over 2m on possibly better ground vs SS … I know which one I would try
Yes they might but the fact that he is an unknown quantity at Cheltenham and it is a stiffer track are not positives. Have you got an ante-post ticket for the Gold Cup?
I remember from last year how many people were trying to suggest Simonsig for the Supreme and Sir Des Champs for the RSA only for them to run out two of the most impressive winners at the Festival.
Another thriller!
There is no doubt Flemenstar travels like a class beast, he deffo has gears.
I don’t think 3 miles will be a problem, but 3m 2f around Prestbury Park is out of his reach. Not every stayer is a Gold Cup horse, as we all know to our cost!
Interestingly, he’s only 11/2 for the Champion Chase. Must be a bet to nothing E/W if he turns up?Tidal Bay showed such a pulsating desire to win that he must be there or thereabouts come the big day. The pace will be better and we know he handles the track. In the form of his life. Yep – be interesting to witness how Nicholls has revitalised him.
I was really sweet on Sir Des Champs…and I do think he is the one to take out of the race. I don’t why his jumping has suddenly become so unsure, he didn’t have any problems previously. Maybe the oppo are just going a shade quick for him. Still, it’s gonna be a ball-breaking pace at Chelters, innit ya get me bruv?
I reckon his jumping errors can be ironed out and he will relish the hill in the GC. I may back him now EW at 7/1 with Ladcrooks…I thought he may be a bit bigger on Betfair TBH.
Zip
Having looked at it again, I think SDC has most potential for improvement; he jumped slowly, was running on at the finish, and has won twice at C’ham. I absolutely love Flemenstar, and if he’d been ridden positively into the last fence he wouldn’t have lost momnetum and might have held on. But the extra 2 furlongs and the hill at C’ham, don’t think so. First Lietenant keeps surprising me, and may well improve again past Tidal Bay. I don’t see them coming back to Tidal Bay at C’ham, tho I agree his jumping has become mch slicker under Nicholls and Ruby.
Bobsworth still the one to beat, but not much in it, mouth-watering, let’s hpe they all get there fit and wellThe jockey on Flemenstar didn’t shine, he looks an ideal ride for Ruby Walsh.
Flemenstar always races enthusiastically. If he does it going 2m4f pace he’ll do it even more at 3m pace. Particularly when he’s a natural front/prominent runner running against other natural front/prominent runners. So highly unkilely to get his own way. Nothing to do with a poor ride.
So you consider a steeplechaser the finished article at 7 years old and nothing should ever change about the way it runs or is ridden?
To get the best out of most horses they need to learn to settle as much as possible, not allowed to run too free with no cover.
Flemenstar needs to try and do this in the higher class of race, you can get away with it in lower class.
His connections have said it wasn’t a good ride, even when he went for home he went too soon.
A quality rider such as Walsh would have tried to get him settled with cover.Swap the jockeys on Tidal Bay & Flemenstar and you get a different result or do you think Lynch would have won on Tidal Bay?
His connections have said it wasn’t a good ride, even when he went for home he went too soon.
They didn’t say it wasn’t a good ride, rather the tactics were not so good. After the race Casey said they would have been better off running him the way they normally did, not holding him up longer, which is what you are suggesting.
Peter Casey – "He got a bit buzzy before the race and ran too freely most of the way without cover".
Francis Casey – Andrew said he pulled the whole way and didn’t settle".
That’s not tactics, it doesn’t matter what tactics you use if the horse doesn’t settle and is too free, that’s part of the jockeys armoury, some are just better at it than others.
Peter Casey – "He got a bit buzzy before the race and ran too freely most of the way without cover".
Francis Casey – Andrew said he pulled the whole way and didn’t settle".
That’s not tactics, it doesn’t matter what tactics you use if the horse doesn’t settle and is too free, that’s part of the jockeys armoury, some are just better at it than others.
Yes Eddie, they are saying that had Lynch gone from the front (as per usual) Flemenstar may well have settled better. However, having no doubt watched it several times since those statements… Their subsequent decision to go for the Champion Chase seems to admit going from the front would’ve led to going TOO fast… So the result is likely to be the same – ie not getting home.
Value Is Everything
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