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A freind of mine yesterday placed a £200 win bet on Ilare who was the favourite for The Prix Ferand at Auteil.<br>The race was not shown in the shops and all he had to go on was the list of runners on the screen.
The bet was timed at 3.56 and that was the official starting time according to The Racing Post.<br>The horse came up on the screen as the winner and when he went to collect his money he was informed he was ‘not on’ as the bet was taken after 3.50 which was the time the race was meant to start.<br>He was told that it was his responsibilty to ensure the time of the bet but he could only get his information from one betting screen and if that informed him the race had not started how was he to know any different?<br>Despite his arguments and protests that the bet was not placed ‘after time’ and all they could do was to offer him a full refund.
The crux of the matter is that if the horse had lost he would have thought that he would been on a losing bet as how was he to know the bet was deemed to be placed late and voided?<br>The manager said he normally tells punters when bets are  not accepted but in this case he did not.<br>
(Edited by Seagull at 9:26 am on Feb. 28, 2007)
.. you need to wise your mate up, about betting in shops or with bookies Seagull. You cant really expect anything else.
lol @ Dave, I only bet with bookies but I know what I’m doing, some don’t.
<br>£200 bet on some French race? he must be mental :o
<br>Seagull, I get your point about if the bet had lost but my bookmakers know me well and if that happened to me which there is no chance of atall then they would return my stake, it probably depends on if you are known as say your mate isn’t a regular in that particular Ladbrokes then how would they know who’s bet it was if they didn’t know him and that he’d left the shop thinking he had lost? if you get what I mean.
I’ve seen many punters in various bookie shops betting with crazy money on crazy things and haven’t even a clue on what they are doing.
Jim <br>The horse he bet on was not some rubbish from Lucksin Downs that Ladbrokes are always keen to promote.
Ilare has raced in 10 chases and won 4 and came 2nd twice won over170k just from chasing.<br>The hurdle form is not bad either winning 3 and 1 second from just 5 races.
On tuesday it was according to him about the best even money shot that day and so it proved as it won 10 lenghts.
Overall I would certainly not describe him as some crazy punter betting on crazy things and that he has not got a clue what he is doing!
There must be something in the sophisticated system they use that lets you know when you have a bet if the bet was accepted or not after all the bet is ‘read’ by the machine.<br>A big cash football bet last week from the same guy was picked up by the machine and I think it actually starts dialing the phone to head office to get the bet cleared.<br>Even betfair inform you when any market is suspended and on course bookies would either accept the bet after the race was off or decline it rather than wait until it has won and then inform you that your not on!
2 Things I Know about Ladbrokes protocol
1) Yes the system has a till-off time. After the race has started the till will off it and return stakes put on after that by default. The manager may pay out the winnings at his/her descretion.
2) The system will not autmotically send bets off for acceptance unless it is £1000 or more. Ladbrokes have different bet limits for different types of racng and sport, but it is the cashiers responsibility to send it for acceptance prior to accepting it.
FSL
What would be the accountance procedure in the above case, if the money is not returned?
Presumably it can’t go throught the books as no transaction has taken place, its been voided.
Manager’s back pocket or shared out between the lads!<br>
Shared out between the lads!
Chance would be a fine thing!
If the bet is put on after the off and therefore is void, it is in the system as a void bet. Most managers check these in a morning and if the bet lost (which it obviously will of done) then they will make the bet a loser so it effectively becomes a regular bet put on before the off that lost. Some managers aren’t quite so good however, and don’t check these, which means it stays in the system as an unpaid "winner". If this is never collected then Ladbrokes the firm get the money.
Not a penny for the staff though! Interesting thought though, do you fancy bringing it up at your nearest Ladbrokes?:biggrin: (Just kidding)
FSL, If I’m reading it correctly?
Isn’t what you’ve just explained fraud (changing slips) and theft! :angry:
Well its sneaky but I don’t think it is against the law.
Lets do a little example:
Customer comes in and places bet after or on the off
A) If the bet is a little late then it is at the managers discretion. They SHOULD but do not have to pay out if it wins, all of the managers I have worked for (10) have done.
B) Therefore if the bet is put on a little late and it loses it counts as a losing bet. The computer will try to return stake on both A) and B), so if you are paying out on A then you don’t get your staker back for B). It is quite difficult justifying coming back to collect your stake in the hope you put your bet on too late.
C) You put your bet on late and it wins and the manager refuses to pay the bet. Well unless it was put on very late, I wouldn’t be exchanging pleasantries with the manager. If this is the case then you are entitled to collect all bets put on late that are lost. However this is the issue because if they are not collected then Ladbrokes keep the stake.
So they are not doing anything illegal, but it can be a slightly grey aread depending on the manager.
FSL<br>The cash bet was £2000 on the Liverpool win in the Euro football last week. <br>As soon as the original slip was put through the machine it must have triggered something off and the machine started to dial head office with no help or assistance from the staff.
Surely some system that can register large bets can also ring some bell or something to warn the player he/she was just too late.
I have seen a copy of the ‘winning bet’ and the words cancelled have been printed in bold below the bar code. <br>The word cancelled was not on his copy though.
To rub salt into his wounds he was given a pre paid form in order to write off his complaint.
However the first part of the form is to give punters the chance to register one of the staff for a WOW award when one ofthe staff ‘has done something truly outstanding’
maybe to be able to take winning bets and skip paying out and attempting to keep the stake will qualify.
Well onbviously I am not party to that bet and so don’t know the individual details.
As you rightly say, a £2000 bet will of been sent through to Ladbrokes head office for acceptance. (Regardless of what it was betting on). Unless the customer in question was a winning punter in Ladbrokes shops it is very likely the bet would be accepted (it is also the cashiers to job to highlight if it is a regular punter btw). Subject to acceptance which he clear got, the bet would go through as normal and he would then pay for the bet.
The time of the bet is displayed on the slip, and that is a clear indication of whether the bet was put on in time. Now any manager (and cashier) who has the slightest bit of knowledge about his job would know that the match has already started and would reject the bet. But anyway say they didn’t and they soon would know when they tried to capture it.
Was it a quickslip? They get autocaptured and the manager doesn’t have any control over them and that would explain why he didn’t use his discretion (it is a large bet for manager discretion all the same)
Secondly, was it a *live* match in that ladbrokes offered in running prices? If it was then it should of been pointed out that the bet was late but they could have the inrunning price instead (which would 9/10 be the same price)
Thirdly, did the customer watch the match in the shop? If they did then they should of been notified when the bet was captured there was a problem.
As you say, the system probably should notify that bets are late (the Tote does) but at present it doesn’t so cashiers should be vigilant for this.
I am a little confused about the CANCELLED bet. The machine only prints one copy. If the bet he got didn’t say cancelled then it wasn’t. My only thought on a slip saying cancelled is because they put it through and then baulked at the size of the bet and cancelled it, or did a secure image of it. Very confusing.
I can only apologise for the service your friend got and would make sure that member of staff is reported.
I’m sure Ladbrokes have systems in place to prevent slow-counting and other fraud, not returning the stake on late bets could be part of this protection (theoretically) as it provides a deterent for people trying to place fraudulent bets (which your friend clearly wasn’t trying to do Seagull).
fsl<br>the £2k bet football bet won <br>no probs with that one
incidentally the guy is a big punter who has a stall in the market near by (he has a very famous son by the way who used to race against Seb Coe) and hes is well known.
Its the so called late horse bet that the trouble is with.<br>(incidentally its a Grade 1 shop) so should staff there be better educated than the lower grade shops.
All they have done in the end is lost a big punter.
What’s a grade one shop? Ahem I work in one of the shops with the "less educated" staff, but we’ve never had a customer that we couldn’t understand what they were wanting and weren’t able to help them. (usually)
Irish Stamp yes they do have certain systems, and they also have photos of the top 20 fraudsters. I don’t think late betting on football is an issue though, its dogs that they try that with.
Seagull do you know what the off time of the race actually was? Did it go off early? Does he know the manager ie what does the manager do normally about late bets?
Quote: from FlatSeasonLover on 9:45 am on Mar. 1, 2007[br]
If the bet is put on after the off and therefore is void, it is in the system as a void bet. Most managers check these in a morning and if the bet lost (which it obviously will of done) then they will make the bet a loser so it effectively becomes a regular bet put on before the off that lost. Some managers aren’t quite so good however, and don’t check these, which means it stays in the system as an unpaid "winner". If this is never collected then Ladbrokes the firm get the money.
Interesting, very interesting……..
I seem to recall David Ashforth stumbling on a memo from Quarrels requesting managers to do this. It is, of course, straight forward theft.
Slimey Clare denied it was company policy. Surely he wouldn’t lie about something like this!
It seems if you’re betting after the off, you get stakes refunded if your selection wins yet your bet gets registered as a loser if it loses.
Quote: from Glenn on 2:30 pm on Mar. 1, 2007[br]
Quote: from FlatSeasonLover on 9:45 am on Mar. 1, 2007[br]
If the bet is put on after the off and therefore is void, it is in the system as a void bet. Most managers check these in a morning and if the bet lost (which it obviously will of done) then they will make the bet a loser so it effectively becomes a regular bet put on before the off that lost. Some managers aren’t quite so good however, and don’t check these, which means it stays in the system as an unpaid "winner". If this is never collected then Ladbrokes the firm get the money.
Interesting, very interesting……..
I seem to recall David Ashforth stumbling on a memo from Quarrels requesting managers to do this. It is, of course, straight forward theft.
Slimey Clare denied it was company policy. Surely he wouldn’t lie about something like this!
It seems if you’re betting after the off, you get stakes refunded if your selection wins yet your bet gets registered as a loser if it loses.
Well you should get paid out if your bet is right on the off – the system may say it is off but when you take the bet if they are jumping the first of a 3m chase then they hardly have an advantage so it would be paid out normally. In theory though Glenn what you say may be the case.
Aaaaarrrggghhh!
After watching my Scoop6 sink in the mud after race one, I thought I’d stick a Lucky 15 on the rest but the Ladbrokes website is down!
If my other five selections all come in, can I sue them for failing to provide a service? <!– s:wink: –>
<!– s:wink: –>PS Yes I know a Lucky 15 only has four horses, I’ve missed the start at Huntingdon typing this.
PPS See my signature? Charlie Smirke came second in the Lingfield 2.10 earlier. Some nice place money. Gotta love a winning system! <!– s:wink: –>
<!– s:wink: –>
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