- This topic has 77 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 10 months ago by
.
- Posts
Interesting post
I always thought the King George was the most prestigious open age race in the UK calendar but it does seem to have had a tough few years attracting the cream of the crop. Add this to the Eclipse field for Saturday and makes you wonder what the problem is? Are there too many races now? Are horses run more lightly now than they used to be? I don’t know, was just thinking out loud! 
Looking through the honour roll for the KG you can see that of the 26 runnings from 1970 to 1995, 18 were won by 3 yr olds – but the following 19 runnings to 2014 there were only 4 3yr old winners.
The record in the Eclipse is actually worse with 10 winning 3 yr olds from 1970 – 1995 dropping to only 5 winning from 1996 – 2014.
This is probably partly due to the globalisation of horse racing, improved overseas travelling for horses, the arrival of Godolphin around 1994 (who either kept their 3yr olds in training as older horses or actually specifically bought older horses) there was also a move away from the traditional 3 yr old campaign; which would always include a clash against the older generation in either the Eclipse and/or King George.
3 yr olds the likes of Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Grundy, The Minstrel, Troy, Shergar, Sadler’s Wells, Dancing Brave, Reference Point, Nashwan, Generous, Galileo & Sea The Stars all won at least one of those races and some (Mill Reef, Dancing Brave & Nashwan) won both.
The kg used to the mid season highlight with the likes of teenoso beating a multiple group one winning field away back to the days of triptych and dahlia.The fact it doesnt attract all the top 12f horses is due to the breeding fad of wanting 8 to 10 f horses more than 12f horses.I hope it returns to its glory days as im getting a bit fed up of the top horses dodging each other to save their stud value.Just race each other and anyway the top horses dont always make the top stallions as the likes of mastercraftsman is showing.
Looks like Golden Horn will be in the King George assuming he comes out of the Eclipse ok
Will add some class to the field.
Golden Horn runs unless there is any negative after-effect from the Eclipse. Some people will be sitting very comfortably with 5/1 on their tickets for him in The King George.
I was convinced they would give him a summer break but the way he won the Eclipse, the King George and The Arc actually look the more sensible options that the shorter Juddmonte/Champion races. The owner still seems to favour the notion that 10f is Golden Horn’s best trip but I can’t say the visual evidence thus far backs that up.
They haven’t totally ruled the Breeders Cup and if the ground were to be soft at Longchamp and he bypassed the Arc, I suppose they might decide to try to close his career with a trip to the USA but Gosden wasn’t a big fan of the idea earlier in the year.
Sadly, it’s another good horse whisked off to stud at the end of his 3yo career
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Stoute blamed the fast ground immediately after the race for Telescope’s Royal Ascot flop (although that contradicts his record as 3 of his 5 wins have been on Good to Firm – the other two being on Good). Given the current weather conditions, I don’t see the ground being any different for the KG and if the ground really is the issue that Stoute says it is would he even run him?
To me Telescope has always been a high class G2 horse that when upped into G1 races always finds one or two too good for him. Take Taghrooda out of last years race and you could easily mistake it for a top class G2 event. The only way he wins a KG is if the top horses bypass the race altogether, they employ a pacemaker for him and the ground is heavily watered if the current weather continues. Personally, connections should be looking to plunder some of Germany’s G1 races like Grosser Preis Von Baden (which automatically qualifies you for the Breeders Cup Turf) as historically they generally do not take as much winning.
Agreed about Telescope. Not sure he could win Baden-Baden either with the last few wins going to Danedream (2x), Novellist, Ivanhowe and this year also looks good with possibly German Derby dominator Nutan, unbeaten Italian Derby winner Goldstream, unbeaten Guineas winner Karpino, the unbeaten STS son Quassilo, and the rapidly improving four year old Ito. Honestly I think at least a few of them will prove better than him.
Nevertheless I often wonder why the British trainers don´t try the softer German group races more often. Maybe it´s a gentlemen´s agreement not to hurt the local breeding and trainers. Then AOB´s attempt to vulture the German Derby with some supplemented 2nd strings was a huge bust.
Even the trainer of Telescope, Sir Stoutey earlier in the season after the horse won at Newbury, referred to him as a group one and a half horse.
Throw in the fact that he’s been beaten as favourite several times I just can’t have him.
The way Golden Horn won on saturday, he outstayed them. The stiff finish at Ascot always takes some getting so I can see him winning the King George in similar fashion. Also he shouldn’t have to make the running this time, something which surely wouldn’t have suited the horse.
Snow Sky the obvious danger.
I liked the way Snow Sky quickened off the turn and left them for dead in the Hardwick – if there is no other likely front runner in the field on the day, I could see him repeating those same tactics.
Assuming they are able to get those early fractions right, again he could have a 3 or 4L lead turning in and it is very hard to give that much of a start and then try to quicken past a horse that isn’t going to be stopping (remember SK has won over 14F).
I also feel that Ascot’s much shorter home straight of 2.5F (compared to York’s 5F and Epsom and Sandown’s 3.5F) on quick ground is not going to play to GH strenghts as he takes a while to hit full flight and it is highly unlikely that he will be able to out stay SK especially if he has used his turn of foot to bridge the gap.
Still think GH should swerve the KG altogether and be given a break until the Juddmonte because if they go the KG route and are still looking at the Arc as his swansong, he would need a prep race (Prix Neil maybe although it didn’t work out to well for Nashwan who had previously won 2000g, Derby, Eclipse & KG) and then you stil have the ground issue at Longchamp – I can’t see them ever wanting to go 12F with him on soft or heavy ground in either race.
Said it before but my personal preference would be go straight to the Juddmonte, then the Irish Champion and maybe finish his career in the Champion Stakes (usually run at a strong pace and I don’t think going 10F on likely soft ground would be an issue for connections) – the Arc would only be an option if the ground was good to soft or quicker.
Short straight or not I can’t recall a king george where a horse had an unlucky story or wasn’t presented with a chance in the home straight. Usually comes down to whether or not they are good enough.
What about Treve coming over for another shot in England? Surely connections have nothing to lose with her not being unbeaten and with two arcs behind her.
They weren’t afraid to run her on good to firm ground at Royal Ascot.I liked the way Snow Sky quickened off the turn and left them for dead in the Hardwick – if there is no other likely front runner in the field on the day, I could see him repeating those same tactics.
Assuming they are able to get those early fractions right, again he could have a 3 or 4L lead turning in and it is very hard to give that much of a start and then try to quicken past a horse that isn’t going to be stopping (remember SK has won over 14F).
I also feel that Ascot’s much shorter home straight of 2.5F (compared to York’s 5F and Epsom and Sandown’s 3.5F) on quick ground is not going to play to GH strenghts as he takes a while to hit full flight and it is highly unlikely that he will be able to out stay SK especially if he has used his turn of foot to bridge the gap.
Still think GH should swerve the KG altogether and be given a break until the Juddmonte because if they go the KG route and are still looking at the Arc as his swansong, he would need a prep race (Prix Neil maybe although it didn’t work out to well for Nashwan who had previously won 2000g, Derby, Eclipse & KG) and then you stil have the ground issue at Longchamp – I can’t see them ever wanting to go 12F with him on soft or heavy ground in either race.
Said it before but my personal preference would be go straight to the Juddmonte, then the Irish Champion and maybe finish his career in the Champion Stakes (usually run at a strong pace and I don’t think going 10F on likely soft ground would be an issue for connections) – the Arc would only be an option if the ground was good to soft or quicker.
I think you are making far too much of Ascot’s short straight. When was the last time a horse near to Golden Horns class was beaten at Ascot due to the straight?
I completely disagree with you regarding the colt skipping Ascot – wrong move. The race is perfect for him. If he missed the race and ran in the Juddmonte he would be running over ten furlongs. It took Golden Horn till the last half furlong up Sandown’s uphill finish to really shake the Grey Gatsby off. A horse like Free Eagle or Gleneagles over ten furlongs would be very tough test. At Ascot, if he gets there fit and well, he’ll more than likely win pretty comfortably.
King George is the obvious next race for Golden Horn. It will be an easier race to win than the Juddmonte with Time Test going to York.
Value Is Everything<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>LD73 wrote:</div>
I liked the way Snow Sky quickened off the turn and left them for dead in the Hardwick – if there is no other likely front runner in the field on the day, I could see him repeating those same tactics.Assuming they are able to get those early fractions right, again he could have a 3 or 4L lead turning in and it is very hard to give that much of a start and then try to quicken past a horse that isn’t going to be stopping (remember SK has won over 14F).
I also feel that Ascot’s much shorter home straight of 2.5F (compared to York’s 5F and Epsom and Sandown’s 3.5F) on quick ground is not going to play to GH strenghts as he takes a while to hit full flight and it is highly unlikely that he will be able to out stay SK especially if he has used his turn of foot to bridge the gap.
Still think GH should swerve the KG altogether and be given a break until the Juddmonte because if they go the KG route and are still looking at the Arc as his swansong, he would need a prep race (Prix Neil maybe although it didn’t work out to well for Nashwan who had previously won 2000g, Derby, Eclipse & KG) and then you stil have the ground issue at Longchamp – I can’t see them ever wanting to go 12F with him on soft or heavy ground in either race.
Said it before but my personal preference would be go straight to the Juddmonte, then the Irish Champion and maybe finish his career in the Champion Stakes (usually run at a strong pace and I don’t think going 10F on likely soft ground would be an issue for connections) – the Arc would only be an option if the ground was good to soft or quicker.
I think you are making far too much of Ascot’s short straight. When was the last time a horse near to Golden Horns class was beaten at Ascot due to the straight?
I completely disagree with you regarding the colt skipping Ascot – wrong move. The race is perfect for him. If he missed the race and ran in the Juddmonte he would be running over ten furlongs. It took Golden Horn till the last half furlong up Sandown’s uphill finish to really shake the Grey Gatsby off. A horse like Free Eagle or Gleneagles over ten furlongs would be very tough test. At Ascot, if he gets there fit and well, he’ll more than likely win pretty comfortably.
Can’t say I remember a 3yr old of GH class (Nathaniel at the time wasn’t) actually running in KG in recent years as they tend to go Juddmonte/Irish Champion route.
You have also highlighted my worries yourself when stating ‘it took Golden Horn till the last half furlong up Sandown’s uphill finish to really shake the Grey Gatsby off’. Ascot’s straight is 1F shorter and it may well be that the race will not be run to suit a hold up horse & I am pretty certain that over 12F he will be held up – granted, he is the most likely winner but we all know that tactical races don’t always see the best horse winning.
Funny how before the Derby most said he was very much a 10F horse with a big ‘if’ over whether he would last over 12F – he reminds me some what of Sea The Stars who did win twice over 12F but in my eyes his best two runs came over 10F in Juddmonte (broke course record) & Irish Champion (when he was tag teamed by the O’Brien battalions).
I feel that a strongly run 10F is GH optimum conditions and I would rather see him in a superclash with the likes of FE/Gleneagles/Time Test et al at York but that is just me.
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>IBRacing wrote:</div>
<div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>LD73 wrote:</div>
I liked the way Snow Sky quickened off the turn and left them for dead in the Hardwick – if there is no other likely front runner in the field on the day, I could see him repeating those same tactics.Assuming they are able to get those early fractions right, again he could have a 3 or 4L lead turning in and it is very hard to give that much of a start and then try to quicken past a horse that isn’t going to be stopping (remember SK has won over 14F).
I also feel that Ascot’s much shorter home straight of 2.5F (compared to York’s 5F and Epsom and Sandown’s 3.5F) on quick ground is not going to play to GH strenghts as he takes a while to hit full flight and it is highly unlikely that he will be able to out stay SK especially if he has used his turn of foot to bridge the gap.
Still think GH should swerve the KG altogether and be given a break until the Juddmonte because if they go the KG route and are still looking at the Arc as his swansong, he would need a prep race (Prix Neil maybe although it didn’t work out to well for Nashwan who had previously won 2000g, Derby, Eclipse & KG) and then you stil have the ground issue at Longchamp – I can’t see them ever wanting to go 12F with him on soft or heavy ground in either race.
Said it before but my personal preference would be go straight to the Juddmonte, then the Irish Champion and maybe finish his career in the Champion Stakes (usually run at a strong pace and I don’t think going 10F on likely soft ground would be an issue for connections) – the Arc would only be an option if the ground was good to soft or quicker.
I think you are making far too much of Ascot’s short straight. When was the last time a horse near to Golden Horns class was beaten at Ascot due to the straight?
I completely disagree with you regarding the colt skipping Ascot – wrong move. The race is perfect for him. If he missed the race and ran in the Juddmonte he would be running over ten furlongs. It took Golden Horn till the last half furlong up Sandown’s uphill finish to really shake the Grey Gatsby off. A horse like Free Eagle or Gleneagles over ten furlongs would be very tough test. At Ascot, if he gets there fit and well, he’ll more than likely win pretty comfortably.
Can’t say I remember a 3yr old of GH class (Nathaniel at the time wasn’t) actually running in KG in recent years as they tend to go Juddmonte/Irish Champion route.
You have also highlighted my worries yourself when stating ‘it took Golden Horn till the last half furlong up Sandown’s uphill finish to really shake the Grey Gatsby off’. Ascot’s straight is 1F shorter and it may well be that the race will not be run to suit a hold up horse & I am pretty certain that over 12F he will be held up – granted, he is the most likely winner but we all know that tactical races don’t always see the best horse winning.
Funny how before the Derby most said he was very much a 10F horse with a big ‘if’ over whether he would last over 12F – he reminds me some what of Sea The Stars who did win twice over 12F but in my eyes his best two runs came over 10F in Juddmonte (broke course record) & Irish Champion (when he was tag teamed by the O’Brien battalions).
I feel that a strongly run 10F is GH optimum conditions and I would rather see him in a superclash with the likes of FE/Gleneagles/Time Test et al at York but that is just me.
How about the mighty 3 year old filly last year
She was a good filly (her best career performance by a mile was her third to Treve in the Arc) but hand on heart, I think even Johnny G would admit that she is not in GH’s class.
11 still in the mix for the King George.
Looks a decent field. GH is the obviously class animal but some decent horses like Flintshire, Eagle Top, Snow Sky, Postponed and Telescope in there as well.
11 still in the mix for the King George.
Looks a decent field. GH is the obviously class animal but some decent horses like Flintshire, Eagle Top, Snow Sky, Postponed and Telescope in there as well.
Golden Horn has killed the race as a competitive betting heat. Those wise enough to back him at 5/1 will be like the dog with the proverbial duo of willies at the moment.
I thought Snow Sky was the each way value when he hit 10/1. When Golden Horn looked a doubtful runner the Stoute horse was trading as narrow favourite (slightly shorter with a run)
The Hardwicke winner has been supplemented and for me he is a more reliable looking option than Telescope from the same yard. It’s my feeling that Snow Sky may have improved a bit more than John Gosden’s Eagle Top, who was patently not fully wound up first time this season and has just proved a shade disappointing for me this year after seemingly finding his form at Royal Ascot the previous season. I believe Snow Sky will maintain the advantage over Eagle Top and be the one to cash in if Golden Horn’s busy season has caught up with him.
Snow Sky each-way 8/1
1.Golden Horn
2.Snow Sky
3.FlintshireThanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I always thought the King George was the most prestigious open age race in the UK calendar but it does seem to have had a tough few years attracting the cream of the crop. Add this to the Eclipse field for Saturday and makes you wonder what the problem is? Are there too many races now? Are horses run more lightly now than they used to be? I don’t know, was just thinking out loud! 
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.