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Not many Juddmontes run on less than good are there? I would have thought Famous Name would be aimed at an Autumn campaign. Champions stakes?
Thats convenient, have the going description to suit your argument, but in doing so…
you disagree with Richard Hughes’s opinion of the ground yesterday
you disagree with the times compared to standardYou have a horse either Group 1 class or Listed Class…and anything in between is a twilight zone that can be won by handicappers and Pipedreamer is Listed class
Ok, I think I have you now.
You’ll get DOM beaten [b:d9ujr5ix]eventually[/b:d9ujr5ix]….agree with you on that
Hold on, you’ve lost me Cav.
The going description almost all week for saturday was good-firm.
The going description on saturday morning was good-firm.
It was sunny all day at ascot as far as I could see.
The post race reports on both Irishracing.com and Sportinglife.com are Good-Firm (cant get on Racing Post site at present but would imagine they are too).
The time was way faster than standard, only 0.2 secs off galileo’s, which was the fastest in the last ten years, and some 6 seconds faster than a few of the last ten years renewals.
I do not disagree with the times compared to standard, it is you who is disagreeing with the standard times. What times exactly are you refering to? My King George times for the last ten years and yours appear to be very different.
Since when has richard hughes manned the going stick? I will readily disagree with him.
It appears to me that everything about the race yesterday points to it being good-firm (or firmer), except yourself and richard hughes.
IMO it is impossible to differentiate between group a group3 horse and a group2 horse, eg last year, how did Manduro’s Group3 earl of sefton win compare to McCartneys Group2 Champagne Stakes win. Some group2s and 3s will be strongly contested and others will be absolutely terrible.
I draw a line at 120 as IMO it is above that level where you want to be to challenge anything other than a weak group1. If you fall below that level but are better than handicap class then IMO you are listed class, and you can win anything (even a group1) as long as there are no group1 horses there to challenge you. After being beaten 4 times this season (twice in group3s twice in group1s) Pipedreamer recorded his first win above handicap class yesterday in a weakly contested group2, where he beat a group2 winner (over the wrong trip) and a decent handicapper by 1.5 lengths, and recorded a bhb rating of 117. Well done him.
Yet if he is truly a group2 horse then why has he been beaten twice in group3s this season. Indeed as you say, between listed and group1 class is a twilight zone.
Clivex, after the Prix Jockey Club Weld said that Famous Name would next target the International and would be given a break until then.
With all the references to racetimes, any explanation why the course record for the 12f is held by the Listed Class Linas Selection, achieved on Good to Firm ground, the same day as the Papal Bull race your so keen on?
Would probably be helpful in the context of the discussion.
I agree totally with Bulwark except what he describes as Listed class I’d describe as group class.
As for Richard Hughes’ opinion if he’s as good with his opinions as he is with his riding its best ignored. Still trying to figure out how at one point yesterday he was perfectly placed on Duke Of Marmalade’s outside then next time you look he’s on the Duke’s inside encountering traffic problems. Johnny Murtagh’s manoevre – how naive a jockey is Richard Hughes?
Probably get shot down in flames for this comment but – the standard of race riding in the UK at the moment is (IMO) not great by a long shot. What jockey can you trust on your side without having to worry? Probably only Murtagh the likes of Spencer, Fortune, Moore, Durkan, Hughes, Hills – all so called top jockeys but how many of them would you rush to get on your horse for a Group 1? The sooner Fallon returns the better.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…
Four Runs, Four Wins, Four Group Ones this season.
Ramonti was arguably the best miler in the world last year, yet, despite his problems, The Duke was only beaten a length in the QEII last year. Excellent Art, the St James’ Palace winner, was second that day.
Papal Bull, a vastly underrated horse, was still flattered to get so close to DOM. The Duke is a lazy horse, especially when he hits the front.
Impressive and tough, but I still get the impression that there’s more to come from the O’Brien horse.
Dylan Thomas beat Youmzain by four lengths in last years KG. The Duke would probably have beaten him by the same margin had Channon’s horse not met interference.
In my opinion, Zarkava would need to improve to beat The Duke.
Ian,
I was at the Channon yard last week and they said Youmzain did not like being on the outer, away from horses (like in Germany). So it is quite right of Hughes not to come up the outside. He is a quirky individual best coming through horses.
Bulwark,
For what it is worth, I agree with your going description. But although Youmzain at his best is capable of taking on The Duke, I do not believe he is quite as good.
Mark
Value Is EverythingI couldn’t watch the race, but listened to it, and the impressin I got was that Youmzain was taken along the outside until nearing the last stretch, then was taken on the inside and into a pocket – the exact opposite to normal procedure. I think he’d have murdered them both. Just my opinion.[/quote
Thats exactly what happened.]
Hughes should still be hanging his head if he has any shame left. This was probably the most incompetent piece of race riding and judgement i’ve ever seen. A totally brainless display. You could almost be excused for thinking this was his debut.
I bet he drove home in reverse whilst talking jamaican patois to a glove puppet-only THAT would have made more sense as a spectacle in comparison.
The Duke won the King George with ease after being headed less than a furlong from the finish.Aidan said that even when he was passed he was not worried since he knew Johanny had not yet pulled his whip through.When are we going to believe our eyes and listen to the trainer. We have no idea how good the Duke is but what he did on Saturday is something very seldom seen; he had to make two efforts and the Bull only one. To go behind a half length and to win a half length all in less than a furlong at the end of a mile and a half race is something indeed.Remember that Papal Bull was bought on Stouty’s advise to win a Group One race so he is a good horse.
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