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Escorial,
Our latest jousts appear to have coincided. I thank you for your highlighting of a true Group 1 horse – good to see that there are 8 in training at present. Maybe we should invite the BHB to stage a race for just them and, heaven forbid any imposters such as Nayef or Tobougg be allowed to join in.
There will always be some G1’s that are stronger than others (I agree with you wholeheartedly about Kutub for example), but this has always been the case and will continue to be so. This is of course assuming that the future does not mean that all 3-y-o Group 1 races are only open to horses from Coolmore and those all-aged events may be also be contested by the odd Godolphin representative.
<br>racing daily
it was generally believed that teenoso needed soft ground but in fact he won quite a competitive king george on fast ground beating amongst others sadlers wells ( it was july 84)
I stand corrected. I think that, had the going at Epsom been good, Hawk Wing would have won. I would lay money that if the two (HC + HW) meet on better ground, Hawk Wing would win.
 i think dubai has its own passports
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(Edited by prince regent at 9:19 pm on June 9, 2002)
Esc,
The Derby certainly didn’t grab my attention – two excellent horses beat 10 that weren’t in the same parish. Even so, they are worthy of being classed as true Group 1 horses. I think that you are too harsh in your assessment of what is a true Group 1 performer and what is a champion. Yes, Fantastic Light was a great horse – although certainly no G1 3-y-o – and worthy of his star billing but to be a Group 1 horse you can only beat what competes against you. To say G1 horses are few and far between means you obviously think that there are too many G1 races and prefer instead to concentrate on a select few contests (King George, Arc and Breeders Cup) to define what is a Group 1 performer. I would suggest that the winners of these great races are champions, but certainly wouldn’t begrudge the likes of Hightori being considered G1 class. After all, they regularly get close enough to the real equine superstars to prove their worth.
Interesting that your list Escorial of top class performers is pretty well distributed amongst the stables. Leaving the retired Galileo and Fantastic Light aside:<br>Coolmore have 2<br>Godolphin have 1<br>And 4 French trainers have one each.<br>Not quite the monopoly your other threads suggest Coolmore have. Interested to know which of them you think is the best?<br>
To be honest Escorial my answer is a resounding NO!! People talk about Godolphin and Coolmore been destructive to racing. Come over to Ireland some time and I’ll show you what Ballydoyle and Coolmore has done for Irish racing.Our horses are sought after by people the other side of the world,our people are considered the best in the business and are sought after all over the world,racing gets a growing coverage and respect in Ireland. I can tell you its 10 times better to be a small trainer in Ireland than it was 10 years ago. Prize money(for handicaps and maidens alike) is simply huge. Coolmore and Ballydoyle have raised the bar and while some obviously will never be able to reach their standards they are at least been forced to try to make an attempt. <br> When you refer to the big two its Coolmore and Godolphin. But to be honest over here it aint quite as clear cut as most people over in Britain might think. Ok at the very top Ballydoyle will 9/10 times come out on top but from Group2 down Oxx and Weld are more than capable of holding their own and I think its a bit insulting to them to say otherwise.<br> There is a lot more to worry about over in England rather than the big two dominating. Sort out your prize money, too much racing and I hate to say it your predictable and conservative trainers with the odd exception.
Racing Daily, I think that Teenoso (along with such horses as Pinza and Santa Claus) falls into the category of "Derby winners underestimated because they disappointed at stud".
Teenoso was a a slow developing horse who was never going to appeal to breeders – his 2-y-o form was little better than yesterday’s Belmont winner Sarava. He really needed a Group 1 winner from his first crop if he was going to be a success and attract high class mares.
I think people’s opinions of classic winners of past years as RACEHORSES is often coloured by their subsequent performance as STALLIONS. I would rate Teenoso as no worse than an average Derby winner, as a racehorse, possibly a little better.
@ Escorial
Of course I do not rate the German Derby as high like the English or Frech Derby, my personal Derby List is:
1.) Irish Derby<br>2.) English Derby<br>3.) French Derby<br>4.) German Derby<br>5.) Italian Derby
The reason for me to put the Irish Derby ahead of the French & English is that you very often find the winner of those two Derby’s running in the Irish Version.
But now back to last year German Derby what was raced on ground much more softer than the official going (soft), I would consider the ground at least soft/heavy if not heavy. And yes you are right; most people were concerned that the Favourite was withdrawn on the morning of the race because of the ground (what was a good decision by the connections).
Saying all that I have to say as well that the winner of the German Derby, or let’s say the German breed three-year-old is compared to an english/irish/french breed three-year-old more backward. It is normal that they improve a lot from three to four and even from four to five. That means that a German three-year old would find it hard to race against International horses before the month of July. Most German trainers wait until they are four years old before they go on to run worldwide. Some of the Top German Horses in the last years have been Lando, Monsun, Sternkönig, Tiger Hill, Samum, Boreal, Silvano and many more. All this horses are true Group I horses.
You mentioned the Preis von Europa were Boreal was beaten by Yavana’s Pace for example…yes he was beaten on this day…. but he slipped in the curve and was a faller. This form should not be counted.
In your post you mention some horses Boreal could face in the next few races… I will not look on Fantastic Light and Galilio as they are both retired. And personally I think every horse worldwide will have very big problems to beat Sakhee on turf. As well the first two from this years English Derby are looking very good.
But as well I think Boreal should have no problems to beat Aquarelliste and Banks Hill in a race. If he would beat the first and second from the French Derby…. I think at leas he would give them a very hard fight for the money.
Using the Postmark from the Racing Post the Race (for the fourth place) would look like that…..
Banks Hill 126 (on 10furlongs)<br>Boreal 124<br>Sulamani 124<br>Act One 122<br>Aquarelliste 121
Now to the last point I want to mention in my post……… I think the Coronation Cup is a real Group I race, winners like in the last ten years are proofing this point. And this years race might not have been the best race in history (nobody says that) but it was not a bad one as well.
Marieband was a fresh Group II winner in England, Zindebaad was a Group II and III winner this year in England and Storming Home was only beaten 3 length by the GREAT Galileo and Fantastic Light in last years King George, Boreal beat him 3 ½ length. I will not mention Kutub as this form is not his true one.
I do not mean to make this clear that Boreal is one of the best horses in the World like Galileo, Fantastic Light, Sakhee, High Chaparral or Hawk Wing but he is a proper Group I horse.
Escorial I think you do one big mistake ……… horses in the league of Fantastic Light and Sakhee are more than Group I horses……….. they are the superstars of racing. But there are many Group I horses around, what are not as good but still are proper Group I horses.
:pimp:
Oh please Esc, don’t let distain for middle distance horses colour your judgement – agreed that champions usually prove themselves over a range of distances, but it is possible to have a great 12 furlong horse that hasn’t won Gr1s over shorter distances.  Is a champion sprinter not a champion unless he’s won over a mile and a half? Don’t make me laugh.
I agree with your point of overrating unproven horses, and also that some pattern races can be undeserving of their status – the sprint races in recent years have been especially poor.
But you seem to be creating this big gap that the pattern cannot fill – only champions are allowed to run in Group 1 races.  You’re wrong – champions impressively win or are even placed in, the Group 1 races – that’s what makes them champions. Group 1 horses run in the Gr1 races with a chance of winning, maybe filling the places, maybe in the absence of a champion they win themselves. They are still proving themselves the best of their generation in their category, which is what the Gr1 status is for. Boreal has proved himself a Gr1 horse.
There will always be Gr2 horses on the cusp of Gr1 status – should they not be allowed to run?  Horses do improve you know.<br>
@ Escorial,
I totally agree with you about horses named to fast a SUPERSTAR or the best Horse of the last 30 years or anything like that. Personally I think you do have very seldom this kind of horses and three or four in one Year is something “impossibleâ€ÂÂ
Esc,
The Coronation Cup had 2 G1 winners in it, Boreal and Kutub – one third of the field in fact.
As for your continued assessment that Hawk Wing is inferior to Rock Of Gibraltar, you are in a tiny minority of people who actually believe this to be the case. Its all very well saying the form book tells you this, but the formbook tells me that Dubai Destination laughed at RofG at Doncaster, and he in turn got beaten by Coshocton, who had been beaten by RofG.
Reading form is one thing, interpreting it is another
Quote: from Escorial on 3:58 pm on June 10, 2002[br]<br>The Coronation Cup was a Group 1 race with only one Group 1 winner in the field, running against horses, two of which were the only ones with winning form on the ground, and one of those ran no race, so what did it prove?<br>
In this years Coronation you had following horses:
Boreal: Group I Winner and placed in three more Group I Races
Storming Home: Group II Winner and placed in Group I, II and III Races….. beaten only 3length in the King George VI And Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes
Zindabad: fresh Group II and Group III winner.
Marieband: Group II winner this year and last year and placed in Group I Races
Kutub: 3 times Group I winner…….. had not his race
The best Rating (PM) before the race have been:
Storming Home  PM 126 (King George VI And Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes)<br>Kutub 122 (Preis von Europa, Jockey Club Stakes) <br>Marienbard 121 (Jockey Club Stakes) <br>Boreal 118 (Grosser Preis von Baden & Dubai Sheema Classic) <br>Zindabad 118 (Yorkshire Cup, Jockey Club Stakes)
And to horses like Carnegie, Urban Sea, White Muzzle, Apple Tree, User Friendly, Snurge, Singspiel, Oscar Schindler, Royal Anthem, Dream Well, Silver Patriarch, Fruits Of Love, Fantastic Light, Sagamix, Swain, Luso, Wellbeing and Petrushka tried to win this race in the last few years……. and the winners are horses like
1992: Saddlers´ Hall (PM 120) <br>1993: Opera House (PM 118) <br>1994: Apple Tree (PM 119) <br>1995: Sunshack (PM 118) <br>1996: Swain (PM 120) <br>1997: Singspiel (PM 126) <br>1998: Silver Patriarch (PM 125) <br>1999: Daylami (PM 126) <br>2000: Daliapour (PM 124) <br>2001: Mutafaweq (PM 122)
Would does a race need to become a Group I ???<br>And to be honest I am quite happy this is a Group I …. because if not England would have only one Group I race for older horses over this distance.
:pimp:
<br>
Esc :wave:
I think Smithy and DM are adequately covering the Coronation Cup debate… so just going back to an earlier point about great horses winning over a variety of trips…..
never won outside Group 3 company at less than 12 furlongs….hardly the sign of a great horse
As Shergar, Ribot and Lammtarra only won their Group 1s over 12f, does this mean they don’t classify as great horses either?<br>:biggrin:<br>You might want a bit more flexibility in that theory….
<br>(Dayjur :kiss: is on my list of all-time greats, along with Vintage Crop).
@ Escorial
I only wanted to show that the Coronation Cup is a real Group I Race, because one thing a race needs to be a Group I is a "racing-history". That’s the main reason it will take some more time until the Races in Dubai are recognised as "real" Group I Races….. but they are on the right way.
One of the few persons I know making money with racing are the bookies… and if a bookmaker like Coral is pricing up Boreal as the fifth Favourite for the Arc the horse must be a proper Group I race. And the Racing Post gave him a Rating of 124…. what  is a very good Rating in my opinion. I can not recall many older horses this year with a higher Rating over 1m4f. And only two three year old what are better (English Derby) and two what are in his league (French Derby).
Can you name me any more 1m4f horses that raced this Year that have a higher Rating than Boreal. Again…… if he wins the King George or the Arc…. is a different story. But the only think I want to tell/proof is that he is Group I Class. And even if Storming Home and Zindbad are “onlyâ€ÂÂ
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