- This topic has 158 replies, 34 voices, and was last updated 14 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Mastercraftsman had won 2 Group 1"s at the same point of their careers Halfway.St Nicholas has won 1. I sense you may have backed him for the Guineas and Derby!
Shame Workforce will do you both times! 
No chance on the Guineas front mate. Did that with Mastercraftsman (even though he’s a different animal) and got bitten.
I’ve backed him for the Derby for the last 8 or 9 months though at all kinds of prices
I’m not the biggest fan of Fame And Glory. He’s one paced, but come on…….
Aidan O’Brien entered Fame And Glory in a race. It wasn’t some kind of racecourse gallop where Aidan just wants the horse to close on the leaders and hit the front for a stride. And, next time out, in a Group 1 race, it’s fairly likely he’ll win if placed right. It’s also possible Murtagh will receive some punishment for his use of the whip if the race is close given his history in that sphere. It’s no wonder people are fed up with this sport. Horses win off 365+ day breaks over jumps – many good flat horses win first time out the next season. Yet, randomly we suffer the schooling on a racecourse syndrome. And even more amazingly, some accept the excuses that follow. Fame And Glory was clearly fit enough to win first time out last year having been ridden properly with wildly different ambitions looming. Not so on Sunday though? The excuses are almost lies.
"I wouldn’t be disappointed with that, We needed to start him off and it was very tough going out there on very holding ground. He just got tired," O’Brien said.
He got tired? He practically wasn’t even asked to win the race.
Tired under that tight grip Murtagh had him under for 99% of the race? Did Fame And Glory not win a Group 1 in soft ground in France as well as a 2yo? Oh yes, a 1m 2f Group 1 in an amazingly quick time of 2m 19.90s. It must have been like a road that day…. So Fame And Glory can win first time out, can win on Heavy ground, can win in better company, but we were all served up that.The Irish stewards must all be in their coffins already if they genuinely missed the ride. They should all feel ashamed collectively as to how punters were robbed of any chance. It’s ridiculous for anyone new to this sport that you’re better off assessing O’Brien’s training methods/patterns/motives, than the ability of a Group 1 winning horse in a Listed race.
Irish and even English classic racing is effectively run by Coolmore. Take a look at last year’s Derby to comprehend the impact of Coolmore on the Classics. It will be more obvious this year I suspect.Aidan plans to win all the English colt classics this year I believe. And most of the Irish and French ones as well. So do you expect the Irish stewards to get into a row with him over how he goes about his business?This is the year he goes for the Group One record.Twenty Eight in one season I believe it is.He has more good 3yos’and older in his yard than the rest of Europe combined.By the end of the Derby trials you will be in awe at what he has.If he gets a good crop of 2yos’ he can do it.
Oh come on!
A horse should be doing his best. His best at that time. O’Brien (as is often the case at this time of year) is in crap form. Think he’s only had one or two wins this season. That info is out there for all to see. Fame And Glory was never going to run "to form". The only thing that counts is whether he was given the opportunity to win. And in my opinion he was. There is absolutely nothing in the rules to say a horse must be 100% fit, or hit with the whip. There’s no point in hitting him, because he was never going to make up that much ground in the final furlong. Might’ve been a bit closer, that’s all.
There is nothing wrong with not being 100% fit, as long as he’s trying to win the race. This was not a non-trier. What possible reason is there for connections not to want F&G to win?
Nothing wrong if Aidan O’Brien comes out and states all this before the race. Instead he repeats the same old line ‘the horse is well in himself, we are very pleased with him’ He’ll say that for every runner all year round.
This thread is a fine example of those that actually know their horses from those that obviously dont! The 2 horses that finished in front of Fame and Glory yesterday would have to start now to even finish the Arc,where as Fame is more than capable of at least running a place.Yesterdays "performance" wouldn"t have looked out of place in a pantomime! "He"s behind you" shout the crowd "and thats where i"m staying replys Johnny"! A joke of a ride!
I’m puzzled by many of the comments on here that point toward either the ride or the trainer’s intention to win the race.
And yet, on this very same forum we’ve seen numerous complaints about delays in getting horses into the parade ring in order to be able to give them the once over and assess their fitness.
I was under the impression that only by seeing a horse in the flesh can you properly determine its condition and yet how many of the members upset about yesterday’s performance took the horse’s appearance into account, in which case you can hardly judge whether it ran as well as could be expected, can you?
O’Brien’s pre-race comments would have told me more than enough to know that it was a huge lay. You need to read between the lines of trainer’s comments and look for the clues and emphasis on certain words. For me, the word "hope" would have been a big negative.The fact that the horse was having his first run of the season is irrelevant.
The fact that the horse is trained by someone in poor early season form is irrelevant.
The fact that AOB is the trainer is also irrelevant.
However, the rule book of the Irish Turf Club is relevant.
212. (a) Every horse which runs in a race shall be run on its merits.
(i) The rider of every horse shall take all reasonable and
permissible measures throughout the race to ensure that
his horse is given a full opportunity to win or of obtaining
the best possible place.
(ii) Horses shall not be run in races where they are in a
condition which would preclude their chances of winning
nor shall they be run for the purpose of giving them a
school.
(iii) The racecourse must not be used as a training ground and
all horses, including horses having their first run, must be
ridden to attain the best possible place and must not be
deliberately eased before passing the winning post without good reasonIs it really unreasonable or unfair to expect that the stewards should have asked Murtagh and the trainer to explain the riding of Fame and Glory yesterday?
Very few 2/5 shots are a huge lay Ken! Particularly when its the Irish Derby winner running against handicappers!
My very point APK ! All the signs were there…odds too generous and competition not up to scratch.
However, I’ll defer to your greater wisdom…though I still think an expert could have spotted something in the parade ring.
Cheers
KMy very point APK ! All the signs were there…odds too generous and competition not up to scratch.
However, I’ll defer to your greater wisdom…though I still think an expert could have spotted something in the parade ring.
Cheers
KMy greater wisdom would also state that Fame and Glory won the Irish Derby over the Curraghs tough 11/2m in 2m 30 secs,yesterday he clocked 2m 23secs for a 11/4m at the Curragh!Now that basically sums up just how poor a ride the horse was given!Fame handles heavy ground,no problem,he could have made all in 2m 15 secs if he wanted too and won by 10 lengths!Of course if he had ran to his fitness level yesterday then like i have already said he was no where near fit,but even accounting for that the clock tells you quite clearly he should have still picked them up and carried them! He is Different class! No excuses!
- Total Posts 17716
All any trainer or jockey charged under the non trying rule has to do now is present stewards with a DVD replay of that race. If stewards don’t charge Murtagh/O’Brien with that then they have very little grounds for charging anyone else ever again.
But that wont happen will it?
Parity in racing is a joke.
The horse was not tired, the horse was on the bridle with about 2f to go with every other horse going hell for leather. If I would have had money on that (Which a lot of people who seek out "value" would have) I would be furious.
I was not financially involved in any way, I followed the horse with a keen interest all of last year and was cheering him on as a fan. The horse cruised into contention and Murtagh was so weak that had it been an amatuer riders handicap he would be fined, banned and the rest.
Why should it be a rule for one stable and a different rule for another. The horse could quite easily have won that race with one slap. He didn’t even hit top gear.
The fact that the Prix Ganay is three weeks away proves O’Brien used this race to blow away the horses cobwebs. Or as those who aren’t breaking rules would say, training in public.
This does, however, have to be the first time people are moaning that top horses are getting a run though, as usually it is moaning we do not see them enough.
Your best option with top class horses is to back them in top class races. Simple as that..
I wasn’t too surprised he lost. I never felt he’d have been fit enough, as it sounds like he was lacking some condition recently and they needed to get some race time in.
First time out in heavy conditions, carrying more weight than the others all contributed to him being beaten.
Johnny looked like he made a move with him & he just didn’t have the kick to do itAlso, there was no pace in the race as Ballydoyle did not have a pace maker. F&G would be better suited by constant fast pace rather than a slowly run race. Instant acceleration isn’t his strong point.
….the whole Racing for change concept is a joke, addressing the wrong issues altogether.
What issue would you like ‘Racing For Change’ to address regarding an O’Brien horse running at the Curragh?
So you think this sort of thing only happpens in Ireland? I was taking the big picture. If racing really wants to attract supporters and betting which finances the sport then it has to act on horses which are not there to win. But they continue to turn a blind eye, at least for some stables, whilst worrying themselves about ‘fun’ activities and other peripheral issues.
Sorry for tackling more than one issue at once.All the big trainers have "prep"races for their Derby or Classic horses. Perhaps the punters should hold their money in their pocket until all the prep races are concluded.When the trainers take each other on is the time to back up your judgment with a bet.Incidentally I don’t believe that "racing for change" is going to outweigh John Magnier with the Irish stewards.
As for Young Mick; everything you say is true. If a permit holder did what Aidan does he would be warned off.Such is the way of the world.There are no permit holders in the steward’s room.A small trainer won a classic two years ago in Ireland and he was immediately disqualified for interference.I am not saying he did not interfere, just if Aidan had done it it would have been OK.SO we are only blowing smoke here.- Total Posts 17716
Mr O’Brien says:
Fame and Glory and Dixie Music both ran well in the Alleged stakes, the slow pace probably did not suit either of them but we were pleased with their runs and think that they should both improve a lot from today.
I’m genuinely bemused by this thread. The idea that this horse should have been tuned up 100% to win a listed race on heavy ground in April is certainly a curious one to any purist lover of the flat, as several contributors have pointed out.
Only disappointed punters, or sourpusses gunning for the Pedestal Man, could rationalise otherwise.
Now, if anyone else besides a somnolent Pinza was behind the Red Button on Sunday (that golden, Dessie-free silence much preferable to taking in an interminably dull 3m hurdle from Southwell) they’d have got the picture, as the camera focused on Fame and Glory all the way out of the paddock, across the course, and up to the start.
Why this 1-10 shot was trading at 2-5 was supremely evident from his stuffiness and general demeanour.
Yet defeat over 10F at listed level does not do the horse’s stud prestige any good, does it? So if there’d been a chance he could have won Murtagh would have pulled out at least a couple more stops. Watching the way the race was run, though, gives no ammunition for impartial observers to doubt Mr O’Brien’s word that the expected slow pace did not play to Fame and Glory’s strength.
I doubt the horse will win the Ganay, traditionally easy picking though this race may be – he’s never had instant acceleration at any distance, and in a 10.5F race that Longchamp straight requires an animal to manage that.
Though Special Duty – at least as tenderly ridden to defeat in her Gp. 3 Guineas prep at Longchamp, and who has criticised
that?
– may well still trot up at Newmarket.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.