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I, for example, will not have any German products in my house.
Couldnt it also be worth boycotting things from brazil, and get the missus to boycott things promoted by brazilian super-models with german surnames.
On the subject of german things, when I first moved to wolverhampton from NI, it used to (well still does) completely do my head in that all the kebab shops, pizza shops and chippies used to sell german tins of coke instead of british coke.
It wasnt so much anything to do with the war or ought, it was more that you could actually taste the metal off the tin, and it was gross. I wouldn’t say I am any sort of coke connoiseur but at the same time I seem to be in the minority that can tell the difference between coke and pepsi, and in an even smaller minority that actually noticed that most of the takeaway coke was german.
Then I moved to swindon and noticed that almost all takeaways there sold german coke, also, as does most of north yorks.
When I went back home on leave one time, one of the post pub pizzarias pulled out a tin of german muck and I properly kicked off with them and they are back to british again. Thank the lord.
What is it with these people, are they going to LIDLs instead of cash and carrys, I cant say for certain but it grits my sh1t…
Yes and I hear Michael Winner regularly sends back his post-prandial can of Dr Pepper if it’s too warm.
It’s gassy water in an aluminium container. What’s the difference?
At lunch I purchased a packet of cheese and onion crisps. To my horror, there was a touch too much synthetic onion flavour and not quite enough fake cheese taste. I was appalled to find, on closer examination, that the crisps were made in Holland, which is next to Germany. Imagine my anger! I am strongly considering burning down the newsagent where I purchased said item just to teach old Fritz a lesson.
There is a huge difference between Pepsi and Coca Cola and also between Regular & Diet Coca-Cola
However I must admit to not being able to discern between German Coca Cola and non-German Coca Cola
I feel ashamed!
I took Bulwark’s post to be a rather good lampooning of Herr Ostermeyer’s rather odd tirade, but maybe I’m wrong.
I was under the impression that all European coke was made in Colombia, but I’m no "coke connoisseur" admittedly.
Personally I don’t buy anything English due to that ghastly country’s involvement in the slave trade. You only need to go back 176 years!!!
A nasty thread, in which it would have been wise if certain posters had ‘declared an interest’ at the outset.
:? I took Bulwark’s post to be a rather good lampooning of Herr Ostermeyer’s rather odd tirade, but maybe I’m wrong.
If you feel having principles are odd then I think it says more about you than it does about me
Personally I don’t buy anything English due to that ghastly country’s involvement in the slave trade. You only need to go back 176 years!!!
****** deleted ****** So are you suggesting that because something happened 70 years ago it should be forgotten and swept under the carpet?
Would I by any chance be correct in assuming your family was not directly impacted by either the holocaust or the slave trade? If so I don’t think you are in any position to pass judgement on those who were.
A nasty thread,
If you are referring to your last post then I completly agree.
in which it would have been wise if certain posters had ‘declared an interest’ at the outset.
I think most of the posters in this thread, on both sides, have been quite unambiguous about where they stand.
I don’t really think there was anything in Drone’s post that warranted that kind of response, to be honest Paul.
I don’t really think there was anything in Drone’s post that warranted that kind of response, to be honest Paul.
I disagree Grassy – knowing my feelings and what I have posted in this thread I find being referred to as Herr Ostermeyer – in jest or otherwise – grossly offensive.
No one should take a ‘moral high ground’ because of what happened a long time ago; we shouldn’t forget and we should learn from our mistakes but what is important is what is happening now.
if you feel having principles are odd then I think it says more about you than it does about me
Presumably you believe the "principles" of:
children bear punishment for sins of fathers
… visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation
I
vehemently
do not and I find such beliefs offensive. That is one of my principles. You are of course entitled to yours.
Would I by any chance be correct in assuming your family was not directly impacted by either the holocaust or the slave trade? If so I don’t think you are in any position to pass judgement on those who were.
I chose the ‘slave trade’ analogy with some care, fully expecting a retort along the lines of the one you’ve written.
I am a quadroon i.e one of my grandparents (paternal grandfather) was black (as the ace of spades infact) and arrived in this country from his native Trinidad in the early 1920s on a government scholarship to study Medicine at Edinburgh University; a rare feat then of which my family remain immensely proud. Needless to say he suffered his fair share of racial prejudice both while at college and later in general practice in a mining town in the Midlands, where, it must be said, he eventually became much loved and respected. Despite the numerous racial slurs (some rather nasty, think dogshit in the post) he grew to love the UK and was forever grateful that this ‘land of opportunity’ gave him the chance to pursue a career in medicine.
His father (my great grandfather) was the son of a freed slave, born on and into a British-owned sugar plantation in the mid 19th century. Do I think the slave trade was abominable? of course; do I hate the descendents – 170 years on – of those involved? of course not; do I think the Holocaust was abominable? of course; do I hate the descendents – 70 years on – of those involved? of course not.
I find being referred to as Herr Ostermeyer – in jest or otherwise – grossly offensive.
Given Ostermeyer is a teutonic-sounding name, and you presumably descend from a family of Germanic Jews then – assuming you are as proud of your heritage as I am – I find it strange you should find being referred to as "Herr" "grossly offensive"
I’m sure Graysonscolumn for one found your new-millennial dismissing of Germany offensive, perhaps even grossly so.
Btw your dislike of all things German didn’t stop you putting up Fiepes Shuffle at long odds for the Celebration Chase at Sandown on the final day of last season’s OM competition did it? Strange how "principles" do tend to be ignored when chasing a pot of gold.
Incidentally I spent 4 happy months in Israel getting on for 30 years ago, some of it working on an agricultural Moshav in the Negev desert. That and my travels around the country opened my eyes to the general ‘world view’ of the Israelis and their relationship with the Palestinians. I have no wish to discuss it here, other than to comment that your posts on this thread are pretty much a microcosm – a mirror – of what I found.
Hey-ho
if you feel having principles are odd then I think it says more about you than it does about me
Presumably you believe the "principles" of:
children bear punishment for sins of fathers
… visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation
I
vehemently
do not and I find such beliefs offensive. That is one of my principles. You are of course entitled to yours.
Don’t presume to second guess what my beliefs are – the two you have quoted above are preposterous and untennable.
If I am not mistaken the latter one is a biblical quote – which has as much relevance as a fairy story as far as I am concerned.
Do I think the slave trade was abominable? of course; do I hate the descendents – 170 years on – of those involved? of course not; do I think the Holocaust was abominable? of course; do I hate the descendents – 70 years on – of those involved? of course not.
I agree with you both are absolutely abhorrant but, with respect I do believe there is a difference.
In the case of the Holocaust there are still survivors living – both those who were interned and those who were involved in carrying out the atrocities.
In the case of both events they should never be forgotten and they shoud serve as a constant reminder.
However in the case of the Holocaust it is still too recent.
Anyway all I have done is state a personal choice – I am not calling on others to do the same. My parents have the same attitude as me. I have two sisters – one of who shares my view the other doesn’t. The approach they take does not impact my view of them.
Given Ostermeyer is a teutonic-sounding name, and you presumably descend from a family of Germanic Jews then – assuming you are as proud of your heritage as I am – I find it strange you should find being referred to as "Herr" "grossly offensive"
It is Dutch origin actually and no there is no descent at all from Germanic Jews – if you must know its Russian.
Also Jewish decendancy is through the maternal line so the fathers surname does not always have any relevance.
As for pride in my heritage – I don’t have any particular pride. Going back to your earlier condemnation of the precept of
children not bearing punishment for the sins of their fathers
– then why should they take credit or pride for the achievements of their fathers. You cannot have one without the other.
My Grandfather, who is the one person I have loved and admired more than any other. Came to this country after his parents fled the persecution of the Jews in Russia at the turn of the last century. He never talked about what happened to his family or in the war – although I found out more after he died. That is why I hold such strong views. I do not and cannot expect others to understand why I hold the views I do – nor do I expect people to agree with them.
However I do appreciate it if people respect the fact I have the views in the same way I try to respect the views of those who hold contrary views to me.
Look I don’t want to fall out with anyone over this – if I was harsh in my last response I apologise – I shouldn’t post when I am jet lagged!!! I should not have let this get "personal" – that is a failing on my part.
and to be honest I am certainly getting fed up with this thread and having to justify what I have posted.
and at the risk of being accused of throwing my toys out of the pram – I’ve had enough – so so long chaps.
It is Dutch origin actually and no there is no descent at all from Germanic Jews – if you must know its Russian.
Also Jewish decendancy is through the maternal line so the fathers surname does not always have any relevance.
.
Sorry Paul. Stupid of me to try and draw conclusions about your ancestry from a mere surname.
Other than that, just robust debate, no falling out here and no need for apologies. I can take, and thrive, on cyberpunches and I’d like to think you do too.
I hope your "so long chaps" doesn’t imply you’re leaving the forum. I and I’m sure the majority on TRF have a high regard for your posts, so please think again.
Some things are just too personal and too deeply engrained to be adequately described in mere words. Let it all lie
Those are the last words from me on this thread too.
I couldn’t disagree with Paul more .. my Mother’s Mother (my Grandmother) was Jewish but the religion is gone.
..you may wish to read this, (copied from The Spectator Coffee Shop ) –
United Nations Relief and Works Agency have now ‘clarified’ that Israeli shells did not hit one of its schools in Gaza. So, one of the supposed ‘facts’ used by those–including the UN Secretary-General (pictured)–who argued that Israel was being careless about the impact its military operation was having on civilians turns out not to be a fact at all. Although, it is, obviously, still tragic that innocent people died regardless of where they were located.
As Melanie pointed out when doubts were first raised about this incident, a false version of events—a version that some UNWRA employees must have known was false—was allowed to spread through the media and “whip up an eruption of hatred and violence towards Israel”. Somehow I doubt that those media organisations that were so keen to report the original, false allegation will be equally keen to point out the truth now that it has come out.
The last sentence is, sadly, depressingly true. Whatever one may think of Hamas, PLO, Fatah, Al Qaeda etc. they certainly know how to manipulate the media and the gullible “Guardiianista”, social-worker. liberal types amongst us.
Insomniac, your mistake was in quoting Melanie Phillips’ segment i.e. this bit:
…..“whip up an eruption of hatred and violence towards Israel”……
Where was this alleged violence against Israel?
Did Egypt attack? Did Iran attack? No.
The truth is that there was no post-Gaza-incursion "violence" against Israel, and the only "hatred" came from those who already hate Israel anyway.
Granted, there was a sense of outrage expressed at the reported bombing of the school, but hindsight is 20-20.
What this fatuous piece doesn’t do, is change history. The simple fact is that many more civilians were killed in the recent Gaza episode, than members of Hamas. Let’s try n ot to lose sight of that fact.
In such circumstances, this is the question I ask myself:
Let’s say that Hamas
are
on the roof of a school, and
are
firing rockets from it. Let’s also say that the Israeli Defence Force
know
this to be the case, but also
know
for a fact that children are in the school.
Are the IDF at liberty to bomb the school to stop the rocket launches, whilst aware of the fact that children are at risk?
My internal answer every time – regardless of whether we are talking about the situation in Israel/Palestine, or another theatre – is a resounding ‘No’, because the slaughter of innocents only perpetuates the status quo, and breeds new levels of hatred…….and the cycle goes on.
As far as media manipulation is concerned, I personally refuse to listen to platitudes about ‘limiting civilian casualties’, ‘smart bombs’ and ‘collateral damage’. I would prefer people to say "Fu*ck ’em – they were there and we took ’em out. Tough sh*it about the casualties" because it’s more honest.
At least that way, we would all know where we stand. Let’s not kid ourselves that media manipulation is the sole preserve of one side in this conflict.Let’s say that Hamas are on the roof of a school, and are firing rockets from it. Let’s also say that the Israeli Defence Force know this to be the case, but also know for a fact that children are in the school.
Are the IDF at liberty to bomb the school to stop the rocket launches, whilst aware of the fact that children are at risk?
Under the British Rules Of Engagement
You may only fire upon a target if they prevent a threat to life (not property) and only as a last resort, if there is no other way to protect life.
You may only fire aimed shots.
I would expect that the scenario described above would present a bit of a dilemma for any military commander. In theory if you take out the targets then job done. Do you carry on letting them fire at you from behind a human shield and hope that they keep missing, or do you recognise the threat and take them out, hoping to take out as little enemy civilians as possible. In an ideal world the school roof would be within sniper range, and a rocket wouldnt be called for.
One discussion that used to arise between people in the forces quite often was "If a child comes at you firing a gun or carrying a suicide bomb, could you shoot the child?". I was genuinely surprised at the amount of people who reckoned that they couldnt, I wouldnt even give it a seconds thought, before or after.
If its a case of me or anyone else trying to kill me, it isnt going to be me, if I have any say in the matter.
Let’s not kid ourselves that media manipulation is the sole preserve of one side in this conflict.
You obviously haven’t been watching Al Jazeera then Grasshopper.
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