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Has anyone seen this programme on R UK? Fantastic and they couldn’t have picked a better guest than Steve Mellish who dispelled a few myths like Canford Cliff supposed injury.
I have been really enjoying the programme, well done Racing UK, programmes like this make the subscription fee worthwhile.
No questions about it Ian the horse has eclipsed everything before him and is probably the ultimate thoroughbred breeders will ever see.
Possibly, but fatally undermined by a most unambitious and uninspired racing programme. No travel, no great races, no Dubai World Cup, no Breeders Cup, no Derby , no Arc. He should have been more highly tried and he could have been the greatest.
Just watched it and agree it was very good viewing. A well balanced and fair debate with all sides getting their chance including dear old Laurie!
What is clear is that there will always be several camps and disagreement about what constitutes greatness.
There is also disagreement about how he has been campaigned with some arguing that he could have been pushed more and some saying he has been impeccably handled.
There is general agreement that he is an exceptional horse and that he has probably produced MORE brilliant 140+ performances than any other horse.
Personally I have never seen better but really I am just glad to have been around during his time and am content that he is mentioned in the same breath as the other greats.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Possibly, but fatally undermined by a most unambitious and uninspired racing programme. No travel, no great races, no Dubai World Cup, no Breeders Cup, no Derby , no Arc. He should have been more highly tried and he could have been the greatest.
The premise of the question is fundamentally flawed, given the question can not pull together the data, resources and information required to give an accurate answer. The idea of the greatest of all time, a question perpetually posed, is something known of us can answer and is really not worth the time trying to answer.
Within this framework however, your response is equally illogical and based on nostaglic perceptions that do not equate to how ability is assessed, and statistical deviations within patterns of wheer influence lies.
The Dubai World cup firstly, is not a great race. It may be fiscally great race, but it’s roll of honour is not exceptional. It is rarely contested by the elite horses of any given year from Europe. Like any race, it has above average winners, average winners and below average winners ; however it is clearly not held in particularly high esteem by British trainers. It’s niether historically prestigious or perpetually one of the best races held each year.
Next, you cite the Derby. Well, the Derby is an odd race. A race with tremendous history, however history does not dictate current worth and value. We are far removed from the glory glory days. Further still, given the conditions of the Derby, it is a race that often lacks depth. Top class animals still win it, but their biggest test is still to come. The Derby is still a fantastic race, but the pinnacle of the thoroughbred? I think not, and furthermore, year on year, does not truely differentiate itself in the modern era from Group 1’s later in the year. A horse doesn’t need to win one particular race to show it’s greatness, which i think you are foolishly trying to imply, and is so illogical i’d run out of framework for text before i’d finish, but your foolish perceptions do not fit within reality.
The Breeders cup. Again, not every top class horse goes there. Sea the stars did not. Zarkava did not. It is at the end of the season, in a totally different climate, and as we have seen, often surpises us relative to which Europeans do well. It certainly isn’t a requirement for a horse to achieve any particular status, especially given it didn’t exist when many of the highest rated horses ever applied their trade.
Finally, the Arc. The best race IMO in the world on an annual basis. But again, why does a horse have to win this race in order to truely cement himself? A horse, predominantly trained and race over a mile, contest the Arc? Sure, he may well have blitzed them, but is it a requirement? Brigadier Gerard won a King George, but he isn’t rated for that win. He’s rated on what he did in other races, race you haven’t listed, races Frankel has also won. No one uses the KG as an example of Brigadier Gerard’s true peak ability. So why must Frankel run over 12F?
Frankel has won 9 Group 1’s. In today’s climate, those races were some of the best races on an annual basis. He’s won every single top class Mile race. All very strong races today. He’s won a Juddmonte and he’ll likely win a Champion stakes. All these races compare favourbly with the races you listed, perhaps not in nostalgic terms, but atleast in actuality and current day meaning.
Maybe you should extract yourself from cliches and traditionalism and assess a horse via a logical approach.
Asking this question is akin to the sublime question ; what is the meaning of life. I cannot answer that, outside of annoying HurdyGurdyman, and i cannot answer the question posed here. None of us can. Instead, enjoy the horse, a great horse, a truely great horse … indeed an absolute ******* monster. But the greatest horse? A question you cannot answer, and a question that all false answers lead us nowhere, nowhere more aware and wise then before we asked the question.
I think its because Frankel walked the Juddmonte and looked like he could stay 12f stood on his head, but ducked the Arc. Bit different from The Brigadier, my good man.
I don’t think you can compare horses from different generations based on who would defeat who in a head-to-head match. Curlin would beat Colin, Lava Man would beat Citation, Rachel Alexandra would beat Ruffian. The Thoroughbred is a continuously improving breed.
What we can compare are the
accomplishments
of a horse. In this respect Frankel can’t compare to, say, Ormonde. Ormonde’s wins: 2000 Guineas, Epsom Derby, St. Leger S., Bretby S., Criterion S., Dewhurst Plate, St. James’ Palace S., Hardwicke S. (twice), Great Foal S. , Newmarket St. Leger, Champion S., Free H., July Cup Sweepstakes, Rous Memorial S., Imperial Gold Cup. That’s a horse who won a distances from 6 furlongs to 2 miles and really did "dance every dance".
Then of course there are horses like Kingston, Parole, Exterminator, and Kelso, who belong in another category of greatness. Longevity ought to be taken into account too.
Possibly, but fatally undermined by a most unambitious and uninspired racing programme. No travel, no great races, no Dubai World Cup, no Breeders Cup, no Derby , no Arc. He should have been more highly tried and he could have been the greatest.
The premise of the question is fundamentally flawed, given the question can not pull together the data, resources and information required to give an accurate answer. The idea of the greatest of all time, a question perpetually posed, is something known of us can answer and is really not worth the time trying to answer.
Within this framework however, your response is equally illogical and based on nostaglic perceptions that do not equate to how ability is assessed, and statistical deviations within patterns of wheer influence lies.
The Dubai World cup firstly, is not a great race. It may be fiscally great race, but it’s roll of honour is not exceptional. It is rarely contested by the elite horses of any given year from Europe. Like any race, it has above average winners, average winners and below average winners ; however it is clearly not held in particularly high esteem by British trainers. It’s niether historically prestigious or perpetually one of the best races held each year.
Too Anglocentric; that British trainers don’t hold it in high esteem may be a reflection on their their lack of ambition, precisely what has limited Frankel’s exposure to the wider sporting world. He certainly holds the title of the least-travelled great horse.
Too Anglocentric; that British trainers don’t hold it in high esteem may be a reflection on their their lack of ambition, precisely what has limited Frankel’s exposure to the wider sporting world. He certainly holds the title of the least-travelled great horse.
Exposure to the wider sporting world. This is horse racing ….
The Brigadier didn’t travel. Mill Reef travelled for an Arc. Of course, needing to travel to prove one self isn’t required if the races you compete in already possess a level of competition/ability where you can prove one self.
Frankel will never be looked down upon for not winning a Dubai World Cup ….
Possibly, but fatally undermined by a most unambitious and uninspired racing programme. No travel, no great races, no Dubai World Cup, no Breeders Cup, no Derby , no Arc. He should have been more highly tried and he could have been the greatest.
I don’t see the travelling as an issue as at 8f he has no opposition so why bother travelling to beat what you have already beaten. As for the Dubai World Cup it is run in March so for a horse that you plan to campaign to the end of the season getting him fit and ready for that is not an option I would consider. I don’t see that criticism for him not running in the Derby is fair as it is a unique track which a horse either handles or it doesn’t and just as many don’t as do plus they did feel he was a little immature at that stage temperament wise and they wanted to stay at a mile.
The Breeders Cup was an option but he’s had a long season and California is a long way to go so if they don’t want to go there I can’t see that is any reason to complain. It would also mean he would be most unlikley to run into the Champion Stakes which they have always had earmarked for him
The only thing I’d like to have seen them do with him as a 4yo is to have stepped him up to 10f earlier in the Prince of Wales or the Eclipse and tried him over 12f in the King George which would have confirmed what to do with him for the rest of the season with no real risk. He could have run in the Arc but as it turned out the ground was poor so he’d most likely have been taken out and it is a funny race anyway due to the draw and the course.
All in all he’s a brilliant racehorse and the best I’ve seen in many a long year and I don’t expect to see another one for just as long if ever.
Edit: Came across this article which is worth a read for all his supporters wherever you rank him.
Our very own Sean Boyce is pretty sure he is.
"I have no doubt he is the best I have ever seen" he has just said on ATR.
For him it is not about the Timeform ratings or the form in the book but the sheer visceral feeling and emotion that this horse conjurs in people. How he doesn’t just beat horses but destroys them. The visual impression he creates every time he steps foot on a racecourse.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
No-one admires Frankel more than I do, but instead of being "The Greatest", he will be remembered as "One of the Greats."
On different level, this is a problem for racing, horses are not highly-tried enough. Moscow Flyer never attempting the Gold Cup, Big Bucks not going back over fences, Quevega not taking on Big Bucks. There is no shame in being beaten, Arkle and Secretariat were not undefeated.
No-one admires Frankel more than I do, but instead of being "The Greatest", he will be remembered as "One of the Greats."
On different level, this is a problem for racing, horses are not highly-tried enough. Moscow Flyer never attempting the Gold Cup, Big Bucks not going back over fences, Quevega not taking on Big Bucks. There is no shame in being beaten, Arkle and Secretariat were not undefeated.
A better description might be ‘one of the very greatest horses ever’.
Nobody can declare any one horse the greatest ever without the contention coming under scrutiny, we just have our individual favourites. However I don’t see how anyone in their right mind would not put this horse in THE most elite group of great horses. He’s surely one of a tiny handful of horses that have appeared throughout history that have graced the turf and have truly justified the title of ‘great’?
Definitely not the greatest, but who is?
I feel despondent that this horse has not been tested more, and that IMHO, is partly due to competition in his chosen races, and partly due to the lack of adventure by his connections.
I will always feel "what could have been…" with this horse, but his 2000 Guineas victory was the best performance I’ve seen in that race and did announce his as a superstar in waiting.
Zip
I don’t know about "The Greatest" but when you consider what he’s done to Excelebration any time they’ve met, and then see how easily that horse won yesterday, you appreciate that this horse was very, very special.
A pleasure to watch him.
Still, he was no Moscow Flyer.
It was brilliant to see him go out in a blaze of glory and he will be remembered rightly as one of the all time great racehorses.
Would people please stop talking about Derby’s and Arc’s Frankel was a miler and a 10f horse he never ran at 12furlong but still beat the best around.
We all know he was a free spirit and stepping him up with him being such was fraught with danger. Sir Henry can hardly be called a coward and they could have retried him at 3 he did a great job. No one knew if Frankel would get 12f until York then it was too late with only the Arc left a race Sir Henry has never supported.
Sure he could have gone to the Breeders for another 1/10 pointless win but why? Nothing to gain and one freak accident and million have gone down the sawanee.
Is he the Greatest? No Chance Secretariat was. He’s up there with Sea_Bird I cant split them but definitely ahead of any other horse with the possible exception of Ribot who I can’t comment on as I wasn’t around then.
One things for sure he was bloody good!!!
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