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LOL – thanks, Nathan. Much appreciated. And thanks for the welcome.
I share your views on Eqtiraan BTW. Hope they’re patient with him and he’s able to reach his potential next year
Good to have you on board CRW – two very good posts.
We have to keep Ginge in order on here as he can sometimes get a bit out of hand! I can tell you having met him in the flesh a few times he is a humble and modest bloke with a great racing knowledge and not in the slightest bit condescending. We can all come across a bit different on line from time to time.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Thanks, Joni.
I’m sure he is. And it’s great to hear some of you meet up at the races, although I expect you’ll be going into hibernation in the next month or so. Hopefully you can finish the season off as strongly as you have done the past two years. I do enjoy following your progress
Very kind CRW. I am thinking of going to Sandown on Wednesday actually. Looks a decent mid-week card. Hoping to make Champions Day as well. Come November then yes – hibernation. It’s that or divorce.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
On USAR: looks like Moore was outridden, though I’d like to see the head-on. USAR ducked in behind Harzand close home at Epsom and I think there’s a chance he tried to do the same on Saturday. Moore hit him once right-handed to move into second and then switched his whip. I suspect USAR was hanging inside again.
On USAR: looks like Moore was outridden, though I’d like to see the head-on. USAR ducked in behind Harzand close home at Epsom and I think there’s a chance he tried to do the same on Saturday. Moore hit him once right-handed to move into second and then switched his whip. I suspect USAR was hanging inside again.
I recall the trainer after Chester saying they were thinking of putting blinkers on for the Derby, it would not be a surprise to see them on this year at some point.
In order for Harzand to find one or two too good in the Irish Derby, surely he would of had to run against something that did not run at Epsom or at the very least handle the track? Looking at the result tells us that the only ones who didn’t take their chance in the English Derby were Stellar Mass, Claudio Monteverdi and Ebediyin. All 33/1 or bigger and fairly exposed, too. Therefore, he was never really going to find one or two too good that he hadn’t beaten 3 weeks prior which dispels the theory of us finding out the strength of the Derby form in the Irish version.
Hope I’ve used the quote tool in the right way and thanks for the welcome, GT
Why wasn’t there any good new (or old) horses taking Harzand on in Ireland, CRW?
If Harzand were a poor Derby winner, then wouldn’t you expect either…
One of those finishing behind him on Epsom Derby day to improve past him in the Irish Derby, or at least run Harzand and Idaho close? Those who’d taken on Harzand and Idaho at Epsom were again well beaten in Ireland.
Or
For a progressive three year old colt who had not run at Epsom to give it a go and either beat Harzand and Idaho in the Irish Derby or at least run them close? There were no good new horses in the Irish Derby, probably because they’d all turned up at Epsom.Also, if the Derby form were poor, then would you not expect a progressive sort to improve past Derby horses to win at least one of the three three year old colts and gelding mile and a half group races at the three big Festivals?And yet Derby also rans Across The Stars won the King Edward at Royal Ascot and Ulysses won the Gordon at Goodwood. Then, Derby 3rd Idaho won the Voltegiur at York.
Value Is EverythingThe best prospects turn up in the Derby each year (barring injury/ setbacks). That’s hardly a mystery and this year was no different. It’s just that the best prospects were not of a high standard (comparable to previous years) this year. Sometimes you’ll get a poor Guineas, but I still expect future winners to come from that race by virtue of the fact that it’s (usually) the best race (in terms of talent/ potential) of that year. The true test is when they take on their elders, which so far, has proved the Derby to be below average. No biggie. We’ll get a Golden Horn or maybe even a Sea the Stars Derby in the next 5-10yrs…
Welcome CRW, I need your help here.
I truly don’t understand how the Irish Derby could have held up the Derby form as anything above what it was.
Idaho had raced Harzand twice before and lost both times. He lost again in the Irish Derby.
Harzand went into the Irish Derby rated 123 and came out of it rated 123. That spells same ol’, same ol’ for me.
Good Derby horses don’t need excuses. Anyone backing US Army Ranger this week at odds on, was expecting him to win it, fully wound up or not. How many races does it take to get him fit anyway for goodness sake?
The Racing Post gave Zhukova winning yesterday despite running 2 lbs below her rating. As far as they are concerned she didn’t improve in beating the Derby runner up.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I’m not going to harp on about USAR Steve, I’ve said my piece and unlike you I can let it go, I don’t feel the need to have the last word, at least not now. I’m happy to wait, and if he does prove himself at some time in the future, I will have huge pleasure and satisfaction in coming back on here and discussing it further with you.
The true test is when they take on their elders, which so far, has proved the Derby to be below average. No biggie. We’ll get a Golden Horn or maybe even a Sea the Stars Derby in the next 5-10yrs…
Which races are you judging those 3 year old Derby horses on?
1st Harzand, has only run once against his elders, over an inadequate trip and finished lame. Are you really going to judge him on that?
2nd US Army Ranger, has clearly had a set back, otherwise he’d not have had 78 days off at what should’ve been a busy time. It’s about as obvious as it gets, he’s been below form due to injury. Not helped either by a poor ride last time. Are you going to judge him on that?
3rd Idaho, hasn’t raced against his elders.
4th Wings Of Desire, finished a lot closer to Highland Reel in the King George than he did to Harzand in the Derby. Highland Reel then franked the King George form in the International.If you’re judging Derby form on what happens when the principles meet their elders you haven’t got much to go on yet.
Value Is EverythingChain Of Daisy’s is only rated 103, penalty or no penalty, Ulysses should have won that.
Chain Of Daiseys may have been officially rated 103 going in to the race Joni, but is now OR 110.
Timeform also rated her as showing improved form at Salisbury on her previous start and doing so again at Windsor.
They rate Ulysses Windsor effort as having improved on the Goodwood form.Value Is Everythingginger lets be honest the group 2 King Edward VII form is not worth the paper it is written on,which ever way you try and dress it up.For what is worth,i dont believe Across the Stars acted at epsom so him winning what looks to me a poor group2 hardly endorses the Derby.
Again imo you can not take Ulysses run in the derby as ‘fact’ as again he def did not act and as someone pointed out he got beat by an ok Chain Of Daisys.
Not a lover of throwing Group one form in the bin,but it dont to me look a great derby on form.it has a look of horses who would stay 3 around sedgefield in timeThats my take and again i am not a great to and fro debater and i have said want i think
The true test is when they take on their elders, which so far, has proved the Derby to be below average. No biggie. We’ll get a Golden Horn or maybe even a Sea the Stars Derby in the next 5-10yrs…
Which races are you judging those 3 year old Derby horses on?
1st Harzand, has only run once against his elders, over an inadequate trip and finished lame. Are you really going to judge him on that?
2nd US Army Ranger, has clearly had a set back, otherwise he’d not have had 78 days off at what should’ve been a busy time. It’s about as obvious as it gets, he’s been below form due to injury. Not helped either by a poor ride last time. Are you going to judge him on that?
3rd Idaho, hasn’t raced against his elders.
4th Wings Of Desire, finished a lot closer to Highland Reel in the King George than he did to Harzand in the Derby. Highland Reel then franked the King George form in the International.If you’re judging Derby form on what happens when the principles meet their elders you haven’t got much to go on yet.
We’ve only had one ‘good’ run (WoD – KG) so far against elders from the first 5 home in the Derby. Admittedly a small sample (x6 runs, I believe). Yes, USAR was off for 78 days, but I see no reason why he shouldn’t be winning at the weekend having had a run to get him fit. Bondi Beach was handled very tenderly and ToK finished close up despite being rated 99.
I’m not looking to change your view on what you perceive the strength of the Derby to be. I’m just expressing why I believe it to be below average. The next 4 weeks should tell us more if the first 4 at Epsom take up their future engagements. I’m sure we’ll talk more then…
Welcome CRW, I need your help here.
I truly don’t understand how the Irish Derby could have held up the Derby form as anything above what it was.
Idaho had raced Harzand twice before and lost both times. He lost again in the Irish Derby.
Harzand went into the Irish Derby rated 123 and came out of it rated 123. That spells same ol’, same ol’ for me.
Good Derby horses don’t need excuses. Anyone backing US Army Ranger this week at odds on, was expecting him to win it, fully wound up or not. How many races does it take to get him fit anyway for goodness sake?
The Racing Post gave Zhukova winning yesterday despite running 2 lbs below her rating. As far as they are concerned she didn’t improve in beating the Derby runner up.
Thanks for the welcome, Steve
I believe we’re already in agreement? I was just trying to explain to GT how we could never really expect Harzand to find one or two too good in the ID because he was just beating up the same horses from Epsom plus a couple of no hopers. It told us nothing.
Anyway, I’m not really one for slamming performances. I am looking forward to the end of year 2yo Gp1’s though. Especially on Arc day. There’s a heck of a lot of really well bred unraced individuals out there still (Appleby has a Dubawi out of Blue Bunting). I wouldn’t expect them to be contesting that much at this late stage in the way of group races, but it’ll be interesting to see them hit the track nonetheless
I think a glance at official ratings tells you all you need to know. The top 4 in the Derby are 123, 120, 120, 115. Not the worst year by any means but no really top class animals…..yet.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
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