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Runner up US Army Ranger was running at the Derby trip and dropped to group 3 class to boot. He wasn’t fast enough to win.
US Army Ranger 2nd – Don’t you ever make allowances Steve? Doesn’t it make any difference to you that US Army Ranger was not seen on a racecourse for 78 days between Derby Day 4th June and 21st August – missing many important races? Why do you think that was? Must he be a “plodder”? Well, seemed to show quite a bit of pace at Epsom, could there be another explanation? Oooh we can’t make “excuses” can we? Yes we can! With the absence, isn’t it obvious US Army Ranger has had a problem and currently not able to run as well as before?
1¼ lengths back to…I guess that’s a big NO to all those questions then.
Value Is EverythingIf you note the emphasis on “Inadequate Test”
Why do horses need an adequate test? Because they are SLOW.
Hmmm,
So according to you 5f sprinters are always much better quality animals than milers or middle-distance horses or stayers. Horses need their own set of circumstances to produce their best, that’s one of the first things a punter learns.
You’re confusing “SLOW” with STAMINA Steve. 😆
Value Is EverythingI must just be one lucky bastad, expressing concerns BEFORE races, giving reasoning, and then seeing it unfold exactly as my thinking suggested.
As usual, there’s a jibe about me being simplistic and unable to read form.
For all the form reading some people do, they still feel the need to back five in a race to make sure they get the winner.
Making any comments you like about TRFers not being able to read the form – and yet moan if someone dares disagree with any of your wonderful theories – again. But as I said in that post, “if it works for you – why not
“. So mine are not criticisms, they’re just saying I couldn’t do it the way you do. Everyone needs to do what’s best for them. I bet several horses in one race, getting an excellent profit from a high strike rate. You will have a lesser strike rate but don’t need it because of backing fewer horses. Do find it frustrating you quote a price that’s often no longer available. Got no reason to doubt you’re on at those prices, just can’t work out why you’d delay telling us all until the price has gone. Why not give the rest of us a chance to get on at those amazing prices?
Come back to Daily Lays And Plays Steve, we need another good judge. Am sure you can make a go of it this time.
Value Is Everythingi would love to be a big fight promoter,this would be so easy to promote steve v ginge
‘When EGO’s Clash’ no harm intended,you two get a room a sort it out and see who has the most stamina and who is the plodder
@ the moment i have steve slightly edging it with his hook to the body,about backing five in the race
It’s great that at least two of those horses, USAR and Idaho, are staying in training, so we will be able to check back here this time next year.
i would love to be a big fight promoter,this would be so easy to promote steve v ginge
‘When EGO’s Clash’ no harm intended,you two get a room a sort it out and see who has the most stamina and who is the plodder
@ the moment i have steve slightly edging it with his hook to the body,about backing five in the race
Ginger has the stamina and in abundance. Even after the race is run and he’s lost, he’s still staying on, and on, and on, months afterwards, trying to get a win on a technicality.
Doesn’t anyone else have any feelings on the strength of this year’s Derby?
A multi-way conversation would help make the boxing analogy unnecessary.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
no mate no thoughts and i do apologise for making boxing analogy,only way i could make light of things.
harry carpenter signing off
I am always one to defend 3 year olds until they have had their chance to prove themselves. I hate the yearly “this years 3 year olds are crap” posts that we always get on here before May is even out. So, having now had more of a chance to prove themselves, I would have to say that they are below average. Ginge is right to point out that they have run well in races since the Derby BUT, as far as I can tell, not one horse from this year’s Derby has won an all-age race this season. Most of their winning and indeed most of their subsequent good performances have come in other 3 year old races. Now of course that is in some part due to there being mostly 3 year old races after the Derby but I would like to see them beat a few older horses. Chain Of Daisy’s is only rated 103, penalty or no penalty, Ulysses should have won that.
So in summary, the Derby 3 year olds were probably the best 3 year olds on offer this year and have been able to beat other 3 year olds, but, as far as overall form goes, they are below par.
I do think it is unkind to call middle-distance horses “plodders” though!
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
It’s great that at least two of those horses, USAR and Idaho, are staying in training, so we will be able to check back here this time next year.
That’s true but I am judging horses on how good they are NOW.
The Derby looked overrated in my opinion and how good a horse is at four or five doesn’t tell us how good it was on Derby day.
Place form can be good but it depends on the perspective of the race. Ulysses and US Army Ranger placing in group 3s, as odds on favourites isn’t good placed form.
I have said my piece, people are free to view matters as they wish.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
no mate no thoughts and i do apologise for making boxing analogy,only way i could make light of things.
harry carpenter signing off
I am not fussed about the boxing comment, thought I made light of it myself in the reply I made. Maybe it’s my sense of humour that’s warped.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
I am always one to defend 3 year olds until they have had their chance to prove themselves. I hate the yearly “this years 3 year olds are crap” posts that we always get on here before May is even out. So, having now had more of a chance to prove themselves, I would have to say that they are below average. Ginge is right to point out that they have run well in races since the Derby BUT, as far as I can tell, not one horse from this year’s Derby has won an all-age race this season. Most of their winning and indeed most of their subsequent good performances have come in other 3 year old races. Now of course that is in some part due to there being mostly 3 year old races after the Derby but I would like to see them beat a few older horses. Chain Of Daisy’s is only rated 103, penalty or no penalty, Ulysses should have won that.
So in summary, the Derby 3 year olds were probably the best 3 year olds on offer this year and have been able to beat other 3 year olds, but, as far as overall form goes, they are below par.
I do think it is unkind to call middle-distance horses “plodders” though!
Don’t get me wrong. I am not saying this year’s Derby is an outstanding renewal, far from it. All I am saying is it is NOT…
very moderate.
Had it been a “very moderate” Epsom Derby, Harzand would’ve found one or two too good for him in the Irish Derby and Idaho who was (let’s face it) only 3rd at Epsom – would’ve found at least one or two too good in the Voltigeur and not had a collateral form line (through Housesofparliament) that suggests he would’ve won a Group 1 St Leger.
Although Harzand still has potential to do better if given a real test of stamina at 1m4f, imo this year’s Derby 1-2-3 performances were around average. Winning performance a few pounds below a good year eg Golden Horn last season. However, it in no way deserves to be described with the adjectives Steve uses.
As for racehorses in general: It’s been average. Postponed as yet the best older horse, Almanzor the best three year old (yes, better than The Gurkha). Three year old milers have been a touch better than their elders, but none are outstanding like eg Solow. Been more impressed with the two year olds, although unusually best of them seem potential sprinters rather than milers or middle-distance types.
Value Is EverythingLong time reader, first time poster…
I think it’s fairly clear that this years 3yo middle distance crop are below average as Joni has pointed out. Yes, races have been won by beaten Epsom horses since, but they’re just beating each other or running against horses of less ability who didn’t run in the Derby. It’s no big deal. Some years you get a better crop of 3yo’s, this year we haven’t … but fair play to Steve for recognizing this early on.
I do think that GT’s posts can come across in a most condescending manner. Especially his choice of emoji’s. They serve only to rile which often brings to an immediate halt some of the excellent discussion on here by responses turning personal. A real shame.
Back to horse racing though and I thoroughly enjoyed Saturday’s Champion Stakes. I get the impression Rouget will keep the winner at 10F which will be a real loss for the Arc (my favourite flat race). I don’t rate the Japanese runner and I think most of the antepost value has gone (unless anyone has the direct line into Ballydoyle’s running plans). Too much can hinge on the draw, but if I were to pick two against the field right now, it would be La Cressonaire and New Bay. I’d trust Fabre to have him peaking on the day
Long time reader, first time poster…
I think it’s fairly clear that this years 3yo middle distance crop are below average as Joni has pointed out. Yes, races have been won by beaten Epsom horses since, but they’re just beating each other or running against horses of less ability who didn’t run in the Derby. It’s no big deal. Some years you get a better crop of 3yo’s, this year we haven’t … but fair play to Steve for recognizing this early on.
“Below average” is one thing, but Steve says “very moderate”, are they not two very different things CW?
…And welcome.
Value Is EverythingIsn’t moderate just another word for average….?
In which case very moderate is better than below averageBlackbeard to conquer the World
It’s great that at least two of those horses, USAR and Idaho, are staying in training, so we will be able to check back here this time next year.
That’s true but I am judging horses on how good they are NOW.
The Derby looked overrated in my opinion and how good a horse is at four or five doesn’t tell us how good it was on Derby day.
Place form can be good but it depends on the perspective of the race. Ulysses and US Army Ranger placing in group 3s, as odds on favourites isn’t good placed form.
I have said my piece, people are free to view matters as they wish.
Just on USAR, Ballydoyle use Listed and G3 races as prep races, they really don’t mind their horses being beaten in them, they have a long history of that with their top horses. They prime them for the big ones, the G1s. USAR was rushed for the Derby, it probably wasn’t good for him, his setback was probably related to that. They regard him as a 4yo, he has growing up to do physically and mentally. They will have been happy with Saturday’s race, he progressed from his last run. I don’t think that race was any measure of his ability. With a better ride, and/or given a harder time in the race (Ryan was still sitting pretty when the filly had sailed for home), he would very probably have won, and the winner is a very good filly, Dermot Weld was talking glowingly of her in advance of the race. They may still go for the Arc with him, or the Champion Stakes, but perhaps better to put him away for next year.
Had it been a “very moderate” Epsom Derby, Harzand would’ve found one or two too good for him in the Irish Derby and Idaho who was (let’s face it) only 3rd at Epsom – would’ve found at least one or two too good in the Voltigeur and not had a collateral form line (through Housesofparliament) that suggests he would’ve won a Group 1 St Leger.
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In order for Harzand to find one or two too good in the Irish Derby, surely he would of had to run against something that did not run at Epsom or at the very least handle the track? Looking at the result tells us that the only ones who didn’t take their chance in the English Derby were Stellar Mass, Claudio Monteverdi and Ebediyin. All 33/1 or bigger and fairly exposed, too. Therefore, he was never really going to find one or two too good that he hadn’t beaten 3 weeks prior which dispels the theory of us finding out the strength of the Derby form in the Irish version.
Hope I’ve used the quote tool in the right way and thanks for the welcome, GT
Welcome to the forum CRW not quite sussed the quote facility yet but your post is spot on.
Ginger wrote
Had it been a “very moderate” Epsom Derby, Harzand would’ve found one or two too good for him in the Irish Derby and Idaho who was (let’s face it) only 3rd at Epsom – would’ve found at least one or two too good in the Voltigeur and not had a collateral form line (through Housesofparliament) that suggests he would’ve won a Group 1 St Leger.
CRW wrote
In order for Harzand to find one or two too good in the Irish Derby, surely he would of had to run against something that did not run at Epsom or at the very least handle the track? Looking at the result tells us that the only ones who didn’t take their chance in the English Derby were Stellar Mass, Claudio Monteverdi and Ebediyin. All 33/1 or bigger and fairly exposed, too. Therefore, he was never really going to find one or two too good that he hadn’t beaten 3 weeks prior which dispels the theory of us finding out the strength of the Derby form in the Irish version.
Hope I’ve used the quote tool in the right way and thanks for the welcome, GT Blackbeard to conquer the World
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