- This topic has 52 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 8 months ago by
.
- Posts
- Total Posts 17716
Resorting to ad hominen arguments just makes you look really silly
Yes it does, which is why I don’t do it.
There’s a difference between saying "you are a half-witted fool" and "your argument is utter drivel". The former is
ad hominem
, the latter is not a personal attack but a statement about what you’ve written.
I gave you the facts of the situation, to counter a prejudiced account and personal slurs you’d published about a jockey, on what is usually a reputable public forum.
Just because you don’t "like" Dettori does not give you (or anybody else) the right to blacken his character, or make unfounded suppositions about his behaviour. There’s nothing
ad hominem
about saying this to you: and you’d be as well to remember your own indignation when you try to see things (if you can) from another man’s point of view – in this case the professional jockey you’ve maligned.
Just because people from other countries are not sentimental gushers about horses does not make them bad people. Just because the French
eat
horses does not make them wicked or callous.
Let me quote your own words in a more recent post:
"One couldn’t possibly know either way what his innermost feelings are towards stricken horses."
True. Pity you didn’t stop there.
"However, his countenance definitely conveys an arrogant indifference which is not a good image for either the sport or himself."
That is your opinion: a rather silly one too. It is mere supposition, unsupported by fact or evidence of any kind. It is also, my dear boy,
ad hominem
.
I saw the said interview at Goodwood and I thought Dettori had the tone spot on. He expressed regret about Rewilding (certainly not grudgingly) in a measured way without any histrionics.
One can only assume the original poster was looking for some Dianaesque, bleeding heart response.
With top jockeys riding hundreds of different horses every year can they really be expected to have an emotional attachment with every horse they ride?
Everyone reacts differently – just because somebody does not go in for wailing and gnashing of teeth does not mean they do not care.
By the way, are we talking about the same "uncaring" Frankie Dettori who purchased Fujiyama Crest so he could have a comfortable retirement in his own paddocks?
I too don’t like Frankie flying dismounts from group 1 winners, not for his sake but for the animal’s.
However the incident involving Rewil,ding looked like a bucking bronco to me and Frankie could have been hurt, however he was probably reassuring the TV viewers he was fine.
Rewilding death was deeply moving but would have pailed into comparison if something serious had happened to Frankie.
i did not see frankie getting interviewed after the rewilding race so cant really comment on it but regarding his flying dismounts i also do not care for them if i was to go into any yard anywhere ride a horse and then jump off them like that i am pretty sure i would be chased away i also agree that he is lucky he hasnt been kicked into next week by one of the horses as we know these animals are very highly strung and you realy should be calm around them
Realise its harsh but whenever I see Dettori doing one of his flying dismounts I wish he would fall over and break his leg. Can’t stand him either.
I remember that Dean Gallagher after the fatal fall of musica bella in the great steeplechase de Paris 2009, was devastated and decided to stop his career. he said she died in my arms.
I loved this jockey.Soumillon is very hard with the horses and took scandalous conduct with horses, he likes the cracks that do win. I hate this jockey.and it is very unsympathetic and arrogant!!
Frankie and Fallon, I can not judge because I see them less but I find there very very good jockeys, now I do not know their attitude with the horses.
Kinane , riding george washington during his fatal crash :
That day, I cried, I saw that something was wrong because in the last turn, all horses passed him and I hoped that jockey stop him … but not … he ‘s pushed again and again until the fatal accident … I hate this jockey and all the jockeys that push horses beyond their limits ….From the day George Washington perished in the mud I blamed Aiden O’Brien and the Smith,Magnier,Tabor partnership for taking him out of stud and running him there. Kinane was under orders and cannot take all the blame. They should have withdrawn him as soon as they saw the mud and the fact that under it the ground was like concrete. I have never forgiven O’Brien for what he did it was a sad day for racing to see a horse suffer so and I will never forget George Washington, I loved that horse.
As for Frankie he is getting more arrogant as he ages, I doubt he thinks of the poor stable lad or lass that goes home with an empty box at the end of the day.
Things turn out best for those who make the best of how things turn out...Two points:
Has the sanctimonious OP considered that the thumbs up and smile to camera in the immediate aftermath of the incident might have been designed to allay the fears of his wife and daughters, who would presumably have been watching the TV screen for information on his condition?
How do those who criticise his flying dismounts as likely to cause injury to the horse regard the actions of Barzalona on Pour Moi. Most horsement I’ve spoken to agree that standing up in the saddle and pulling on the reins of a horse under maximum pressure at the end of a gruelling race is much more dangerous for the animal in question.
AP
Two points:
Has the sanctimonious OP considered that the thumbs up and smile to camera in the immediate aftermath of the incident might have been designed to allay the fears of his wife and daughters, who would presumably have been watching the TV screen for information on his condition?
How do those who criticise his flying dismounts as likely to cause injury to the horse regard the actions of Barzalona on Pour Moi. Most horsement I’ve spoken to agree that standing up in the saddle and pulling on the reins of a horse under maximum pressure at the end of a gruelling race is much more dangerous for the animal in question.
AP
I didn’t like that too.
Interesting how a few words or gestures can influence how we judge what a jockeys attitude to horses is. For me, on the downside it was McCoy with Valiramix and on the plus side it was Norman Williamson looking after Nick Dundee at Cheltenham and then being heartbroken at the demise of Shadow Leader in the Champion Hurdle. Also seeing Graham Lee showing concern for a horse he’d just ridden at Kelso that had sustained a cut. As racegoers it’s such actions that form an opinion of someone and, once that opinion is in place it’s there for good. I’m sure that, after poor George lost his life, Mick Kinane praised the horses bravery saying ‘he did everything he could to save me’. However, my memory could be wrong on that one. At the end of the day we can only surmise what they’re feeling inside; most of them will have other rides later that day and, as professionals they can’t fall apart when something bad happens.
I hate Frankie Dettori too. I have never liked him and I probably never will…despite the fact that he has ridden plenty of winners for me this year. Further still, I don’t know anyone who does like the guy.
Why did the subject of xenophobia arise following the original comments?? I doubt very much whether xenophobia was the reason. No, not at all. It was probably more to do with him having the sort of personality which would make ‘Jedward’ seem shy, plus, having the sort of ego that God alone should posess.
The only reason I like to watch him performing his ‘flying’ dismounts is in the vain hope that I can hear an almighty ‘crack’ and watch him writhing about in pain on the unsaddling enclosure floor. The same reason as 98% of people then. If you think that there is a loud cheer when he gets it right….just wait until he gets it wrong. It will sound like the opening race has just gone off at Cheltenham!!
The funniest thing I ever saw was him running about after winning the Derby. He was jumping and smiling and cheering and waving as he made his way back to the changing room expecting everybody to be really happy for him. Nobody could care less. He had to resort to jumping on some random bloke who was laying the silks out for the next race who was duty bound to hug him back because of the cameras.
This was after him almost beating Authorized half to death in the final furlong – despite being 10 lengths clear.
I could give a thousand reasons why I can’t abide the man…some mentioned already and some that aren’t…but I will just leave you with thoughts of a comparison between Dettori and Mick Kinane that spell it out best for me.
Mick Kinane…Sea the Stars – After every race, he simply tipped his cap and pointed to the horse. Dettori…on lots of horses – Pointing at his chest, gesturing that he is ‘no 1’ by raising his finger and looking straight for the nearest camera.
I don’t know who first coined the phrase ‘don’t believe the hype’…but I can hazard a guess that it probably wasn’t Mr Dettori.
- Total Posts 17716
The only reason I like to watch him performing his ‘flying’ dismounts is in the vain hope that I can hear an almighty ‘crack’ and watch him writhing about in pain on the unsaddling enclosure floor.
What a nice man you are. And what a glittering ornament to the Forum you will doubtless be.
Pinza , its just a symptom of how the forum stands at the moment , and why we have lost most of the real quality posters
Shame
Ricky
- Total Posts 17716
Pinza , its just a symptom of how the forum stands at the moment , and why we have lost most of the real quality posters. Shame
And doubtless one will win no brownie points for trying to put a finger in the dyke,
Ricky
.
Ignoring offensive, illiterate rubbish is of course usually the best policy; but it so happened that I’d witnessed Dettori being cheered into the enclosure at Longchamp on Sunday for an excellent
losing
ride on
Rio de la Plata
, and found his grace and courtesy impeccable – despite the evident disappointment of being beaten on one of his favourite horses. He is in general a credit both to the Sport, and to himself.
So this particular bit of nasty, oikish effluvia got my goat.
Pinza , its just a symptom of how the forum stands at the moment , and why we have lost most of the real quality posters
Shame
Ricky
Of course it is.
And the miserable sods that never have a good thing to say about racing & insist that much of it is bent garbage has got nothing to do with it I suppose?
- Total Posts 17716
And the miserable sods that never have a good thing to say about racing & insist that much of it is bent garbage has got nothing to do with it I suppose?
True – the Conspiracy Merchants have much to answer for also; but although sometimes legally actionable, and often pocket-fixated, they at least aren’t (often) disgusting.
It’s quite possible Frankie might be a man of two halves (aren’t we all to a certain extent?) but he has done a sterling PR job for racing over many years.
He gave a short interview to Zoe Bird on ATR at Doncaster last week, at the end of which she asked him why his next mount was wearing a tongue tie for the first time.
"I really don’t know" he replied.
Then added straight-faced: " Maybe he talks too much."
Now credit where it’s due – that is genuinely funny.
More seriously, Ryan Moore is clearly the outstanding flat jockey of today, but I would place Dettori a clear second and William Buick third.
I am tired of tearing my hair out over the rides some horses are given in prestige races, and confine my bets to the above three.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.