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How much behind has Irish racing left Britain

Home Forums Horse Racing How much behind has Irish racing left Britain

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  • #1531096
    Austin
    Participant
    • Total Posts 151

    21-4 in favour of Irish horses at the time of writing this post and with 3 races to go. Its such a sorry state of affairs at the Cheltenham festival for British horses.

    Same is the case in flat racing too where most classics are won by Coolmore & O’briens of the world.

    What happened to British horse racing? Why have we fallen so much behind and how can we improve from this?

    #1531099
    Avatar photoThe Tatling Cheekily
    Blocked
    • Total Posts 2723

    I don’t know but my guess would be shite prize money and shite tax penalties. I’d be pissed off, I’d have been paying money to watch G1 races, which have turned out not to be. Pathetic.

    BUY THE SUN

    #1531110
    Avatar photoGingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 33161

    Comes at a time where (compared to other years) Mullins and the “assistant” trainer we are banned from mentioning haven’t exactly dominated either. Henry has well and truly come to the fore and many more excellent Irish trainers.

    Value Is Everything
    #1531113
    Avatar photoGingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 33161

    Kevin Blake reckons it’s because they’re Irish and the Irish are just better.
    Just imagine the Irish reaction if it had been the other way around and Chapman had said it’s because we Brits are just better.

    Value Is Everything
    #1531116
    thewexfordman
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1200

    That is a pretty simplistic summary of what he said in fairness

    #1531119
    Avatar photoNathan Hughes
    Participant
    • Total Posts 32230

    Swings and roundabouts.
    Not so long ago the Brits were dominating to a degree with Nicholls having the likes of Kauto, Denman, MasterMinded and Big Bucks. Henderson with Sprinter, Bob’s Worth, Altior etc even Alan King was banging in the winners back then.

    Blackbeard to conquer the World

    #1531124
    St Gatien
    Participant
    • Total Posts 57

    Just the way it is at the moment.
    Things will change.

    #1531128
    Avatar photobefair
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2050

    I remember the 80s/90s when Irish winners were rare, but never cared much about the nationalistic side; the horses don’t care either. Swings and roundabout, but maybe Mullins et al are better at courting the big owners and have a better scouting operation.

    #1531156
    Avatar photoCork All Star
    Participant
    • Total Posts 9052

    “Maybe Mullins et al are better at courting the big owners and have a better scouting operation.”

    I think that is the case. Have British based trainers been a bit complacent? Or are some of them not much good when compared to Mullins, Elliott and De Bromhead?

    Is racing better structured in Ireland for graded horses? Maybe the NH season in Ireland is boring but it clearly gives the horses a good preparation.

    Cheveley Park noticeably have all but one of their NH horses trained in Ireland.

    Whatever way you look at it, 23-5 is embarrassing. Two of those won in photo finishes and another benefited from an Irish odds on chance falling. It could have been 26-2!!

    #1531164
    Avatar photoGingertipster
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    • Total Posts 33161

    From what you said in the Top Jockeys thread, TWM; you really had to stick up for Blake. ;-)

    Value Is Everything
    #1531165
    thewexfordman
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1200

    I said UK based jockeys. That includes plenty of Irish men.

    #1531187
    thewexfordman
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1200

    Just in relation to prize money, I think it’s a bit of a smoke screen really.

    I think we can all agree that prize money for maidens and novice races is irrelevant to an owner willing to pay 300,000 for a horse. Whether they win €10,000 for a maiden or £5,000, it’s not going to be a deciding factor behind where a billionaire put a horse in training.

    So let’s look at the pre Cheltenham prize money at the top:

    UK

    Betfair – 90,000
    Fighting 5th – 45,000
    Henry 8th – 25,000
    Tingle Creek – 68,000
    Long walk – 45,000
    Kauto star – 45,000
    Christmas hurdle – 59,000
    King george – 116,000
    Finale – 28,000
    Challow – 22,000
    Tolworth – 19,000
    Clarence house – 59,000
    Scilly isles – 20,000
    Ascot chase – 59,000

    Ireland
    (1st place prizes converted to Pounds)

    Down Royal – 62,000
    Morgiana – 50,000
    Royal bond – 35,000
    Drinmore – 35,000
    Hattons grace – 60,000
    John Durkan – 40,000
    Racing Post – 40,000
    Limerick – 40,000
    Paddy’s rewards – 50,000
    Future champs – 40,000
    Christmas hurdle – 50,000
    Savills – 75,000
    Matteson – 51,600
    Neville’s – 40,000
    Lawlors – 41,000
    Golden Cygnet – 62,000
    Dublin Chase – 62,000
    Irish Arkle – 62,000
    Irish Champion hurdle – 73,000
    Spring juvenile – 62,000
    Chanelle – 62,000
    Pj moriarty – 62,000
    Gold cup – 96,320

    So let’s look a few comparisons

    – Fighting 5th v Morgiana only £5,000 more in Ireland
    – Betfair chase v John Durkan £50,000 more in UK
    – tingle Creek v 2m Leopardstown: UK higher again
    – long walk v leop Christmas hurdle £5k more in Ireland.
    – king george v savills 41k more in UK.

    The main difference is there are more top races in Ireland, a more structured program and better grade 1 options for novice hurdlers.

    There are only two grade 1 novice hurdles in the UK before the Cheltenham festival. Those 2 races (challow and tolworth) have a combined first prize of 41,000, and are run within a couple of days of each other. Neither suit 2 mile novices because the tolworth is usually run in a quagmire and no use whatsoever to prepare or gauge a horses real ability. And neither suit 3 mile horses either.

    Basically the uk novices (unless a trainer is willing to bring them to Ireland) have hardly any opportunities to run in a proper top class novice race.

    By the way – Irish trained horses won ALL of the hurdle races at this year’s festival.

    The other issue I see is the handicapping system – Solo of Paul Nicholls being a prime example last season….beat a few pretty bang average juveniles at kempton and was given a mark of 157. This type of absurd handicapping is repeated hundreds of times in the UK throughout the NH season and really gets exposed at Cheltenham, not only in the handicaps themselves but in the grade 1 races where UK horses often fail to justify their ratings.

    The issue is far greater than prize money.

    #1531188
    Avatar photoGingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 33161

    I disagree, but fair enough, TWM. :good:

    Anyone think the pathetically weak Irish Racing authorities might have had something to do with it?

    Such small penalties for wrongdoing and seemingly not looking in to things with much scrutiny. If the Irish authorities don’t (or didn’t before journalists looked in to it) have CCTV at racecourse stables… Are they putting enough effort in to finding those abusing drug rules in other ways?

    Considering all the above, are the Irish Racing Authorities almost encouraging Irish trainers to break the rules?

    Value Is Everything
    #1531221
    thewexfordman
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1200

    Leaving aside the lack of grade 1 quality contenders in the UK, the issue for UK handicappers is the ratings are very inflated. The information below paints the picture.

    Here is what I wrote after the King George…

    I haven’t posted in a long time but something really interested me yesterday. The ratings of the horses running in the King George as compared with the ratings of the horses running in the Savills tomorrow in Leopardstown. In my view they are all over the place, and its no wonder that irish horses can come over to the uk and win more than a fair share of handicaps. When you look at the ratings awarded to the top horses, this surely has an impact on the ratings given to horses in the 140-160 bracket also.

    King George:
    Cyrname 176
    Santini 172
    Clan Des Obeaux 171
    Lost in Translation 171
    Frodon 168
    Saint Calvados 167
    Waiting Patiently 163
    Real Steel 163

    Savills:

    Delta Work 170
    Presenting Percy 169
    Kemboy 168
    A Plus Tard 167
    Minella Indo 165
    Allaho 160
    Easy Game 160
    Fakir D’Oudairies 160
    Samcro 160
    Tornado Flyer 160
    Melon 159

    I think any fair minded supporter could recognise that the savills is a far better race on paper than the king george yet the king george horses are rated significantly higher

    #1531243
    clivexx
    Blocked
    • Total Posts 2702

    Fair enough but why then didn’t any Irish horse swerve the ultra competitive savills to grab the Kgv?

    #1531249
    Avatar photoadmin
    Keymaster
    • Total Posts 1176

    It seemed in the last few years that the dominance was Mullins/Elliott biased but LOTS of Irish trainers winning in this year just suggests they have better strength in depth.

    Cormack

    #1531275
    Avatar photoGladiateur
    Participant
    • Total Posts 4758

    I was having a hypothetical conversation with a friend today, in relation to the 23-5 scoreline. He’s a bit more patriotic than me and he said that if he won the Euromillions he’d buy all the best young NH stock and send the horses to Ditcheat so that the Irish monopoly can be broken.

    My response was simple: why haven’t other prominent English owners used English trainers? Is it simply that the Irish are acquiring the best prospects or is there more to it?

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