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I just had a look at his stats for the last 5 years in GB and IRE.
In Ireland he had a total of 480 winners from 4121 runners and 493 different horses contesting NH races. They brought home a total of about € 12,035,000. This means that one single horse has earned him about € 24,000 over five years, which is about € 4,800 a year.
Now, I can imagine that a single horse might cost between € 15k and € 20k a year only in training fees. How about the purchase price, how about other costs and what about the unraced ones?
Considering that a horse might cost at around 50k-60k when purchased and another 75k – 100k in training fees for five years, the return of about € 24k for the same period represents a return of roughly 15%-20%. And we have yet to consider the number of horses that don’t make the race track….
The nummbers in GB are just about the same: in five years 322 different horses earned him about 8,8 million pounds.
I just thought that his ROI would be around 40%-50% and not that low. He surely need loads of gambles to be landed…..
Any views, explanations?
He’s a wealthy fella indulging his passion (which is fair enough) – it’s not a business.
Plus he’s knocking on a bit now – what else is he going to spend it on?
You can’t take it with you.
I doubt if he even wins as a punter long term either.
The bookies close punters down for winning a few grand off them if they’re winning steadily so why would they lay his bets if he’s a long-term winner?
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Interesting question RubyLight. I suspect it is very much an expensive hobby as Ian says.
I wonder if the training costs on a per horse basis might be considerably lower when you own your own training establishment, and are possibly paying the trainer on a salaried basis rather than a fee per horse basis. Obviously that is ignoring the initial large capital outlay.
The bookies close punters down for winning a few grand off them if they’re winning steadily so why would they lay his bets if he’s a long-term winner?
That’s what I was thinking as well, Ian. Landing big gambles doesn’t necessarily mean you’re showing a long-term profit. There is a video on YouTube about the “Yellow Sam gamble” back in the 70s. Barney explains that roughly one from fifty gambles is properly landed.
Anyway he must be having between 10-20 million to spend every year. Nothing wrong with that, but just wondering how he does it.
It is his hobby. Logic does not come into it.
Take Jonbon as an example. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to spend over half a million on a gelding.
When his training fees are taken into account (say 5 seasons at £20k), the outlay is close to £700k.
He would have to win the Supreme, the Arkle and one of the Championship chases to just get the money back.
At least McManus does support a few smaller trainers. And whenever he buys a horse which is already in training, he keeps the horse with its trainer.
Isn’t he rumoured to be one of the currency traders who bet against the pound, and won, on Black Wednesday in 1992? George Soros allegedly made over a billion that day, and if sharp cookies like JP played too, they probably weren’t far behind. I very much doubt his ForEx operations went into decline afterwards, either.
When you’re worth 2 to 3 BILLION, with all the investment growth it produces, spending 10 million a year on your hobby is no more than a round of drinks.
Some of his properties cost over 100 million to build.
Don’t worry Ruby, JP can afford it.One things for sure if you think Gigginstown pulling out will have an effect of Irish racing it’ll be nothing to what,ll happen when JP is no longer about , his punts don’t get as much exposure as they once did but there been a few of his Haslam horses winning at short prices over the winter …..
As I understand it he is still domiciled in Switzerland which is a tax friendly country and could as a consequence of such domicile, it was decided in a court case, not avail himself of a double taxation agreement between US and Ireland and claim back 5.2 million dollars which was retained by IRS out of a winning backgammon bet of 17.4 million he won from a US tech billionaire in 2017.
Generally it is the case that racehorse losses can be claimed as a business loss and therefore set off against corporation tax of that business, if the horse operation is set up wholly and exclusively for business purposes and not for any other.
He just loves the sport madly.
The wonderful photo of him standing at plumpton station alone for the train back to victoria told us everything
No grandeur or ego about him at all
I know someone who shared a box with him and said hes so quiet and unassuming and just buries his head in the racing post
And ian is right. A far bigger man than billionaires fretting over stud fees (think see the stars) that they will never need or spend
Giggjnstown withdrawal from racing should be cheered from the rafters
A bigger contrast with McManus you couldn’t find
O’Leary is 100% arsehole
A few thoughts –
That whole “the industry will suffer” if (delete as applicable) Gigginstown/McManus/Sheikh Mohammed on the Flat pulled out thing: I don’t work in the industry, so why am I supposed to care?
Breeders won’t get such big pay days at the Sales and a few bag carriers might be off down the Job Centre, but the game will continue and buying a decent prospect at the Sales will actually become more affordable.
And focussing on the thread title, this whole thing about McManus being a legendary winning gambler the bookies fear must be a myth.
Punters get closed down for winning less than five figures so if he’s landing six- and even seven-figure gambles he absolutely has to be doing all the profit back in with losing bets the rest of the time.
No bookie wants to pay six figures in liabilities just the get their card marked that one is fancied today and there is not one reason why bookies would want to treat him any different from any other high roller: welcome him with open arms and lay every bets he wants if he loses long term, tell him to F off to Betfair Exchange (he might bet there if he really is a winner, I suppose) if he’s a long-term winner.
He’s a successful speculator on the financial markets indulging his passion and good luck to him – you can’t take it with you, so why not?
All IMO obviously.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"I have turned into a complete slob this Xmas time. I awoke at 2pm and have just finished breakfast and three teas and will now stretch the ol’ pipe cleaners to again sit somewhere and imbibe a stronger drug with different coloured lights.
Certainly I am in some admiration of JP’s financial strategies. Tax avoidance may not be too welcome to Irish tax gatherers and may not be entirely in tune with the spirit of our times, or my sister’s spartan view on individual responsibility to the masses welfare, but it is perfectly legal and I have always been interested in finding the loopholes.
I think you ‘double X rated ‘and ‘ there is only one ‘ are spot on in suggesting his horse operations are for love more than money. I just pinpointed Irish tax sentiments and rulings around the issue for interests sake.
You need to be under 55 to register for swiss residency and the 12 years of qualifying residency to acquire a class C permit has been reduced to 10 years. I believe people with companies can negotiate a sum appropriate to eat the holey cheese and say ” that’s mine ” !
It has been quite a nice distraction to cast my mind away from Mr Rick Rake’s financial involvements I have called the Madeira musings to the far more interesting tax vehicle Cubic Expression set up by Mangier and JP in the Virgin Islands. Their capital gains free ( as I understand it) sale of their 30% stake in Manchester United to the Glazers netted the pair 125 million euros over a three year period, to the boiling point fury of one Alex Ferguson – and I believe he has not spoken to JP since.J P has used his currency trading earnings from his Geneva base to invest in Ireland – no doubt about that – and he has given a large sum to charity. More later I must now stretch ’em !
Too many JP horses are ridden from towards the back of the field for him to be numerically that successful judged on winners to runners. ie In the whole racing calandar prominent runners win more races than those ridden from the back. Exception being it’s easier to win big field strongly run valuable handicaps (that mean so much to JP)… And / or could it be held up / dropped out horses are easier to fool the handicapper for such races?
Value Is EverythingFor some reason I’ve been thinking lately about the void that will be left once these long established supporters leave the scene – after all, they too are not getting any younger.
I don’t think we can take for granted that new blood will step in and fill the void. Let’s face it, in a time when racing lacks the respect and support of times past, finding entrepreneurs who will go against their natural, strict profit making desires, to impulsively throw away money due to having a passion for a ‘hobby’, will prove difficult if not impossible.
JP is now 70, O’Leary won’t be back (yep, many will u understandably say good riddance) Wylie came,looked like he’d stay for life, but he too won’t be returning, and for all we know Rich Ricci’s enthusiasm may quickly begin to wane if success at the top level begins to stutter. Noel and Valerie Moran have been investing heavily, so to Robocop or whatever they are called, but in such a delicate climate God only knows how long their present level of support will continue.
“J P has used his currency trading earnings from his Geneva base to invest in Ireland”
It’s certainly quite an impressive growth of capital from starting as an on course bookmaker (making what 5/10 million ?) To forex billionaire
I think you are overly long on his 5-10 million Rollo but hey you might be right. What we can say about JP is his ability to make the right sort of friends and that comes from his affability. He’s a very private person seen by his recent land acquisitions.
Back in the 80’s and 90’s I saw the dark side of Bankbroke but over the pond, Merrill Lynch were, and similar large trading houses described by me back then as no better than bottom feeders or legalised brothel’s with the punters as working girls. A customer had six month of life until be was stripped naked. Then on to the next. 125 dollar a commodity trade back then compared to 5 now and via a broker no button trading.
Getting back to JP I wouldn’t have thought he was ever a sole trader ( maybe more recently) with an equity curve to boast of and doubt he could of held his nerve with the likes of price vacuums back then where you could take a huge hit to nothing, or trading in the dark and not knowing your position. It does not seem to fit into the bookmaker mentality of trading to certain margins and balancing books. Ok maybe he was a whale with a regular up ticking equity curve – I can only speculate and just my opinion. Here is maybe a clue.
Joe Lewis
‘Lewis is the mystery man of the McManus-Magnier-Tabor story. The off-shore financier has made millions for himself and his partners by speculating against weak currencies in eastern Europe and central America, especially Mexico. Lewis’s Enic group, which part-owns Rangers, was suspected of being involved in Michael Tabor’s unsuccessful bid for West Ham two years ago.’
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