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I agree with Euro’s post completely, unfortunately some replys like the above seem to have ignored the sentiments.
There is no class difference – two superb top notch Grade 1 horses. For my money Denman beats Kauto Star over 3m2f round Cheltenam, but clearly was never right at any stage last season, a fact (yes fact) some people bizarrely ignore.
Every man woman and tweed wearing child knows that Denman was at least a stone below his best last year.
The mark of a really true great chaser is to concede weight to other top horses, as well as winning conditions races and Gold Cups – e.g. Arkle, Flyingbolt, Burroughill Lad, Desert Orchid… and Denman !
If Kauto Star wasn’t suited by Aintree’s trip, or up to conceding weight to Monet’s Garden, then why oh why did Paul Nicholls choose to run him there.
Had he won, everyone would be bleating on about how utterly versatile and adaptable he is. Change the record.Kauto Star is class; and when everything is stacked in his favour ( Kempton, Boxing Day ), he is very hard to beat – but, and it’s a big but as far as I’m concerned – he cannot give lumps of weight away to his contemporaries in the same manner as the other greats could.
This remains the one missing element in his otherwise flawless CV.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
It’s far too dismissive to say he is "class, when everything is in his favour", Himself.
Grade 1 wins at all trips between 2m and 3m2f, at tracks as diverse as Sandown, Down Royal, Haydock and Cheltenham attest to that fact. This versatility cannot be dismissed as lightly as you suggest.
That said, I do regret the fact that he has never been tested in a handicap in his ‘glory years’ – beyond his two runs in the Old Roan Chase. I would very much like to see KS given the opportunity to ‘do a Denman’ and try to give weight all-round in a top-class handicap chase, and as I’ve said previously, a run in the Racing Post Chase would be the ideal place to test the theory. However, I very much doubt that we will see it happen at this stage of his career, which is a real shame.
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Kauto Star’s Aintree defeat had little to do with form and owed everything to it being a tinpot race being used as a prep race, just as he has done every season until PN suddenly decided he was best fresh.
Can’t recall too many saying Sea The Stars wasn’t a true champion because he hadn’t run in handicaps either. KS doesn’t need to, and probably the only reason Denman did was it was such a valuable prize in his ideal circumstances (there aren’t many 6 figure pots run over an extended 3 1/4 miles) – and that weight carried makes little difference to a horse of his build.
Arkle is dead and gone, and so are the days when top class horses needed to run in handicaps.Agreed, Euro.
Some of the arguments put forward by the two camps have verged on ignorance and disrespect since the Hennessy.
You can personally favour one horse or the other for whatever reason(s), whilst still fully appreciating the magnitude of their respective achievements.
Under their ideal conditions, I think the difference in Kauto and Denman’s very best form, would probably best be measured in ounces, rather than lbs. They are two tremendous animals, and we should be grateful for both.
Exactly the point I was trying to make on the previous page Grass. I don’t mind anyone having an opinion either way. But for anyone to believe there is a gulf between the two is crazy.
Value Is EverythingTAPK is renowned for having an opinion and 90% of the time i am never far away!But Denman proved me a mile out with my judgement in the Hennessey that says it all!As for beating Kauto at his best around 31/4m at Cheltenham,too close to call,but tactically ridden Denman could dim the star!There is no question Denmans Hennessey victory would win Gold Cups,P,Nicholls emotions showed the scale of the victory!
A small field spin around the Mildmay Course may be ‘tin pot’ compared to the test – and test of resolve – a Hennessy provides but nonetheless Kauto Star did show his ability to shoulder top weight off 167 and give a 21 length beating to the then-reliable Armaturk off 158
Likewise his run over the same CD when topweight off 179 and falling short by just 1.5 lengths to Monet’s Garden (the beau ideal of a Mildmay chaser) to whom he was conceding a stone, which in strict collateral form terms is up there with his best performances
That doesn’t really strike as a horse who can’t concede weight to high class rivals does it?
Though I would agree it would have been nice to see how he got on giving away lumps over three miles.
Not particularly troubled by the knowledge he hasn’t all the same.
A swansong in the Racing Post Chase 2011 please Messrs Nicholls and Smith; you know it makes sense
Kauto Star’s Aintree defeat had little to do with form and owed everything to it being a tinpot race being used as a prep race, just as he has done every season until PN suddenly decided he was best fresh.
Can’t recall too many saying Sea The Stars wasn’t a true champion because he hadn’t run in handicaps either. KS doesn’t need to, and probably the only reason Denman did was it was such a valuable prize in his ideal circumstances (there aren’t many 6 figure pots run over an extended 3 1/4 miles) – and that weight carried makes little difference to a horse of his build.
Arkle is dead and gone, and so are the days when top class horses needed to run in handicaps.Agree Reet,
Top horses don’t need to run in handicaps these days. There is certainly a question whether Denman would run in the Hennessy if there was another alternative. Had stable companion Kauto Star not been around, we might have seen him at Haydock instead (was entered). Nicholls wanting to keep his stars apart until March.
Value Is EverythingCan’t see the point in running Kauto Star when he’s on the downgrade. Unlikely to be well handicapped. If not handicapped to his best it wn’t prove anything.
Do agree though, it would be nice to see Kauto Star in the Racing Post Chase. Percieved "best fresh" arguements don’t add up. Tingle Creek victory being after a shorter break than last years Betfair Chase. Yet after this years race it was "Kauto needed the race".
Seems after any disappointing run, trainers come up with the "best fresh" arguement. Connections of Best Mate hardly helped. After his victorys in the Gold Cup there was a reluctance of many trainers to race their horses. Hope it does not happen again.
I remember jumping fans criticising Sea The Stars owner for retiring him. Yet Sea The Stars ran a lot more often than Kauto Star or Denman are going to this season. Possibly twice as often.
Value Is EverythingCan’t see the point in running Kauto Star when he’s on the downgrade. Unlikely to be well handicapped. If not handicapped to his best it wn’t prove anything.
Wasn’t an entirely serious idea Ginger. The 2010 RP Chase en route to the GC would be even nicer but is possibly an even less serious idea, or possibly even more barmy if you prefer.
This is fun, so given it’s more likely than not that KS will have only four runs before late February 2011 – KG GC BF KG ?? and assuming all goes to ‘plan’ do you think his handicap mark will have slipped much, if at all by then?
Do you think that if he wins or finishes second in a titanic battle with Denman in this year’s GC he could be expected to perform to the level he did in this year’s BF in the following November’s renewal despite being ’10 rising 11′?
His breeding may suggest not; his rarish racecourse appearances suggest yes quite possibly. I certainly hope so.
Denman being the big, numb sod he is will of course still be enjoying a half-speed trundle in long distance Hunter Chases at the age of 15
Percieved "best fresh" arguements don’t add up. Tingle Creek victory being after a shorter break than last years Betfair Chase. Yet after this years race it was "Kauto needed the race".
Seems after any disappointing run, trainers come up with the "best fresh" arguement.
Don’t pay any attention to any of them, ever. Put a bit of Perspective on it instead
Had he won, everyone would be bleating on about how utterly versatile and adaptable he is. Change the record.
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