- This topic has 298 replies, 65 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 2 months ago by
.
- Posts
- Total Posts 17716
I was watching ATR today. Mike Cattermole was interviewing Mick Fitzgerald. The subject was Denman’s Hennessy win.
Fitzy said that he asked John Francome (whom he considers to be one of the best judges out there) if he thought Kauto Star could have carried that kind of weight and still won a Hennessy. Francome said no.
I agree.
I am confident, as I was when Kauto Star won the Gold Cup in ’07 and ’09, and just as I was when Denman won in ’08, that all things being equal Denman will once more emerge victorious against his more lauded stable companion come March.
Here we go again
How Francome works that one out is beyond me. Kauto Star has never been 100% and ran in a handicap and I’m damn sure What A Friend wouldn’t get near him in a Hennessy. Kauto would have won that doing handstands it was not the best Hennessy by any manner stretch of the imagination.Talking of which your getting a bit carried away with yours.
Look at both Gold Cups and it’s blatantly obvious which win was more impressive. I said at the time he’d run right up to his best and he wasn’t finished but most of you said BS. Even if Denman had been that little bit fitter and went earlier he might have added 5 opr 6 lengths to his performance but 13 lengths plus to win it?. I think you’re dreaming mate.
Kauto runs like he did in the last Gold Cup Denman won’t get near him.
This is getting out of hand.
At the moment I believe Kauto Star is just the better of two great horses. But there is not much in it. This Kauto / Denman is far better stuff is getting on my nerves.
Value Is EverythingFist, I think your memory is getting mistier by the day.
I’m quite sure you were very dismissive of Denman’s chances of winning the 2008 Gold Cup and were threatening to jump off Everest and all manner of outlandish things if the "Tank" finished in front of Kauto Star that year. In fact, you said Denman was overrated, as I recall.
Nice to see your recent Damascus like conversion though – even if your memory is a bit tainted in that respect.
I maintain to this day ( and concur with Harry Findlays’s view) that Kauto Star was ok that day and was simply blitzed by the sudden surge of pace a mile from home.
Kauto beat a sick horse last year, who was tenderly ridden, yet still managed to finish second. Yes, I hold my hands up – I too thought the big horse was finished. Remarkable recovery and outstanding training feat by Paul Nicholls and his staff to get Denman back to his best.
As for Kauto Star; I have been following him religiously and backing him in all his UK and Irish races bar two -08 against Denman and at Aintree – where he could not concede Monet’s Garden weight.
Do you not think that if Paul Nicholls thought KS could win a Hennessy, and would easily concede weight to inferior horses, that he wouldn’t have let him take his chance by now ? The simple truth is that he wouldn’t dare risk it as he knows that his superstar wouldn’t succeed.
Kauto is sheer class; no question – and easily much more versatile than Denman – but I am convinced that Denman is the better stayer of the two, and when 100%, he is more than a match for a 100% fit Kauto Star.
Roll on Cheltenham.
Will KS turn up ?
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
I maintain to this day ( and concur with Harry Findlays’s view) that Kauto Star was ok that day and was simply blitzed by the sudden surge of pace a mile from home.
To believe that, you have to believe that Neptune Collonges is as good as Kauto Star. You and Harry both need to take another look at the race.
- Total Posts 170
Where is Denman being aimed at next?
I pretty much agree with Himself on this matter.
I would concede KS was not 100 percent in 2008 but I do not think he was as below par as many believe.
I’m quite enjoying these posts, Gingertipster. C’mon, get into the Gold Cup mood, you know you want to
Zip
Well, Gingertipster,
We are all seeing what we want to see re these two horses.
I 100% stick by my comfort-zone comments.
Imperial Commander showed it and Denman showed it, and that is how KS will be beaten again.
Zip
Zip, Snoopy Loopy also "showed it" in the BetFair last year – did you back him for the Gold Cup?
What are you talking about, Arnold?!
KS would have won that day if he’d stood up!
Zip
Rather than arguing the merits of A v B, I really think we are lucky that the arguement can take place. We are seeing two great horses that will both be up there in the record books.
We are fortunate indeed, the last time I remember making comparisons with such enthusiasm was when I compared Wayward Lad to Silver Buck and, going back farther, Sea Pigeon to Night Nurse. NH has two new stars whom we should admire as individuals rather than competitors
Denman is a streetfighter and KS is a pro-middleweight. Which one is definitively the better? Who knows.At 3m2f+ Denman MIGHT be a slightly better horse than Kauto. But probably only on a yielding surface or softer. On good or quicker I think Kauto would MAYBE just have the edge. I’m still not sure.
But overall surely one can’t argue that Kauto is the superior animal. 2 Tingle Creeks, 3 King Georges, 3 Betfair Chases, 2 Gold Cups. This horse is an absolute phenomenon. Denman has yet to prove he can even drop back to 2m4f and win a Grade 1.
A horse who specialises over 3m2f+ at big galloping left handed tracks on yielding ground, against a horse who can race to a similar level over 3m2f+ but can also drop back to 3m, 2m4f or 2m on any surface at any kind of track – left, right, galloping, undulating, tight, flat . . . Can you imagine Denman winning the Tingle Creek on the bridle?!
I love both horses and it is amazing to have them both racing. But Kauto is the bigger star
ps: But let’s just enjoy them both for what they are
Kauto although merited with slaughtering Voy Por Ustedes in the last Tingle generally faced poor opposition in those races and i reckon Denman would have won just as comfortably had he met that opposition.
- Total Posts 17716
Denman win a Tingle Creek?
There’s this complete fallacy going around that Denman is a soft/heavy ground horse and that Kauto doesn’t go on it. He’s won 5 times on soft/heavy and bar once was nowhere near fit when he did so.
There is nothing to say Kauto isn’t as good on soft ground as he is on good it’s just the way the races have fallen.
While the ground good to soft was tacky at Cheltenham in 2008 it certainly wasn’t the reason Kauto was beaten.
You Denman fans should get it into to your heads that Kauto Star was all wrong in 2008 and no matter what the ground is come March Ruby will stay with him and he will win a 3rd Gold Cup.
I respect Denman but he never has and never will be in the same class as Kauto Star at his best.
There’s this complete fallacy going around that Denman is a soft/heavy ground horse and that Kauto doesn’t go on it. He’s won 5 times on soft/heavy and bar once was nowhere near fit when he did so.
There is nothing to say Kauto isn’t as good on soft ground as he is on good it’s just the way the races have fallen.
It doesn’t matter whether or not KS has won half a dozen times with cut in the ground, the fact is that in most of those races he has had a massive class advantage. He doesn’t act round Haydock, but because he was almost a stone better than his rivals the other day he could run ten pounds below his best and still win. But against Denman everything has to be in his favour, he has no class advantage and if he does run even slightly below his best – and he probably will on dead ground, Denman will beat him.
I respect Denman but he never has and never will be in the same class as Kauto Star at his best.
What does the banner on this forum say? Oh yes, Intelligent discussion about horse racing. This however is the sort of comment that a hopelessly biased and deluded football fan would come out with. Each horse has it’s own followers and it’s pretty much up in the air as to who will prevail in March, but to say there is a class division between them is ridiculous.
Agreed, Euro.
Some of the arguments put forward by the two camps have verged on ignorance and disrespect since the Hennessy.
You can personally favour one horse or the other for whatever reason(s), whilst still fully appreciating the magnitude of their respective achievements.
Under their ideal conditions, I think the difference in Kauto and Denman’s very best form, would probably best be measured in ounces, rather than lbs. They are two tremendous animals, and we should be grateful for both.
I’m not going to go into any great depth with this post. All I’ll say is that if Kauto Star turns up at Chelts in March in the same form he was for this year’s GC, then I simply cannot see Denman getting within 4 or 5 lengths of him – even if he runs right up to his very best form
They are two very good horses indeed and we are lucky to see them but i believe Denman will break Kautos heart at Cheltenham next March……by making it a true test……what he should have done last year instead of playing into Kautos hoofs.
I maintain to this day ( and concur with Harry Findlays’s view) that Kauto Star was ok that day and was simply blitzed by the sudden surge of pace a mile from home.
Do you not think that if Paul Nicholls thought KS could win a Hennessy, and would easily concede weight to inferior horses, that he wouldn’t have let him take his chance by now ? The simple truth is that he wouldn’t dare risk it as he knows that his superstar wouldn’t succeed.
Kauto Star was considered a Champion Chase prospect as a second season chaser, so the Hennessy wasn’t exactly on the agenda in 05 – 06.
The following season, after a facile success in the Old Roan over two miles-four, Paul Nicholls tried the horse over three miles. A huge bonus was on the table for any horse that could win the Betfair Chase, King George and Gold Cup. Rightly so, connections took this route.
In 07 – 08, Denman emerged and his profile strongly suggested he could win a Hennessy. A progressive second season chaser who had won the RSA Chase at The Festival in March (compared to Kauto Star, who missed his intended target, The Arkle, two seasons earlier). Kauto won his second Betfair.
Last season, Big Bucks’ profile also suggested the Hennessy would be a suitable assigment – a progressive second season staying chaser.
This season, Paul Nicholls followed the same plan that was so successful in 07 – 08. Denman won the Hennessy. Kauto won the Betfair.
Kauto Star’s early profile didn’t suggest he would stay three miles-two, so the Hennessy was never an obvious objective. After he proved himself a staying chaser of the highest order, Denman, and later Big Bucks, emerged from the novice ranks with profiles suggesting they could win a Hennessy.
You forget, H, Kauto Star attemped to concede 14lbs to Aintree specialist, Monet’s Garden, over an inadeqaute trip (at that stage of his career) on a course that doesn’t particularly suit. Monet’s Garden would probably be rated higher if conditions of the bigger prizes suited. Not enough pace to win a Champion Chase. Not enough stamina to see out a King George.
Can you imagine Denman trying to give the late Exotic Dancer weight over three miles around Aintree? He couldn’t do it.
Kauto Star doesn’t have to prove his ability by winning a big handicap under top weight. Denman wins two Hennessy’s conceding weight all-round. Kauto then beats Denman by thirteen lengths off levels.
That’s when it matters.
How Francome works that one out is beyond me. Kauto Star has never been 100% and ran in a handicap and I’m damn sure What A Friend wouldn’t get near him in a Hennessy. Kauto would have won that doing handstands it was not the best Hennessy by any manner stretch of the imagination.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.