- This topic has 46 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 1 month ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Jackane,
You are way off your trolly if you think George Washington will attract a stud fee of $500000 and even more in outer space if Dylan Thomas attracts $250000. Dylan is a 12f horse whose record does not compare with Galileo or Montjeu or High Chaparral ( nor does his OR or TF) and they went to stud as did Motivator for a fraction of that price ( high Chaparral and motivator being under £20000, Galileo was £25000 with deals etc)
George Washington’s value is hanging on the QE2 – an unusual gamble for Coolmore to take – especially as in historical terms it is not a race containg high TF horses. If he gets beat ( particularly showing temperment) they will do well to match Hawk wings fee of 20000 euros whilst even if he wins they will do well to get 10% of the fee you suggest.
Jack, you need to get some more research done.
Check out these sites <br>Coolmore
Darley  (hover over stallions name for info).
Although the very very top stallions command fees of £100,000/$170,000 (usually listed as ‘private’ fees, or on application) the vast majority stand at less than £20,000.  They have to be an truly exceptional racehorse or be proven as a serious sire to stand at any more than this.
Rock of Gibraltar started off at about €40,000 (£30,000), so it is highly unlikely that Librettist, George or Dylan will get anywhere near that.
<br>You might find it interesting to compare the fees for the two studs.  But bear in mind that Darley have a policy to make their stallion fees on the low side for their British based stallions.  This is an attempt to counteract the tax advantages that Irish stallion studs can offer by making good quality stallions available at a reasonable price and without the travel expenses.  Some may suggest this has backfired, and Darley are attracting too many low-quality mares who wouldn’t otherwise be worth sending to good stallions….but they are trying to do their bit for the British breeding industry.
The stud fees I predicted are based on Giant’s Causeway priced at $300,000 – Dylan finished 3rd in the Derby by less than a neck, destroyed the Irish Derby field. Irish Champ winner, Derrinstown Stud winner, etc.
GC didn’t even win a Classic – GW and DT have 1 each, plus each have a place in a Classic. GW won the Guineas so well, plus did amazingly well to get so close in the Celebration Mile after he missed the break. Also being a half-bro to Grandera can’t be bad either.
EDIT: Just checked, and Grandera stands in China for £133,000 (2 million yen). Giant’s Causeway works out at roughly £160,000, so while my Dylan T fee is debatable, I think my figure of $250,000 for GW (£130,000) is very realistic.
(Edited by jackane24 at 10:57 pm on Sep. 19, 2006)
Jack, no, stop there.
Prices for stallions are usually based on several factors:
a) Ability as a racehorse (champion, rating, etc).<br>b) Appeal as a racehorse to breeders – ie variety of distances.  A horse winning his big races at only one distance (ie Sinndar) or only at extremes (ie specialist sprinter/stayer) will not have as much appeal.  Having success on dirt to appeal to the American market is also important.<br>c) Conformation. <br>d) Stallion pedigree – how well-related he is on the dam side.<br>e) Sire, and particularly how popular and accessible that sire line is.
Giant’s Causeway is a very different case to George on most of these fronts.<br>a)  GC won 6 Group one races and was never out of the first two.  GW has 3 Group ones and has been third in a Group 2, and has never won an all-aged race.  GW has some serious ground to make up to prove that his performance in the Guineas was not a one-off.<br>b) Giant’s Causeway won 3yo Gr.1s at 8 and 10f.  GW is unlikely to prove himself at distances other than a mile this year.  In addition, GC’s second in the Breeders’ Cup pretty much doubled his stud fee by bringing instant appeal to the American market.<br>c) About equal – but GC is far the superior in temperament and toughness.<br>d) GW’s dam line is comparitively weak.  To be honest, being half-brother to a nut-job like Grandera is a liability – particularly as GW has shown himself to be far from straightforward.<br>e) Stallion sons of Danehill are not exactly an endangered species, and as such do not have great rarity value.  They are popular, yes, but not an outstanding prospect. A Gr.1 son of Storm Cat, performing at the highest level on both sides of the Atlantic, is much more precious.
In addition to all this, Giant’s Causeway did not start his stud career at $300,000 – it has risen to that from $100,000 due to the spectacular success of his first crop.
There are only a handful of living stallions commanding the fee you are proposing for Dylan Thomas, let alone George.  Sadler’s Wells and Storm Cat are probably the only two at half-a-mil. ÂÂÂ
If you think GW is a more attractive option at stud than Giant’s Causeway, let alone SW or SC, I strongly suggest you do not become a bloodstock agent, stud owner or stallion manager, as you will bankrupt somebody very very quickly. ÂÂÂ
Woh, sorry I got the fees wrong in my post – meant to say GW should be $250,000 and DT $100,000. My head is buzzing with stud fees from looking at sires for the past few weeks.
Also didn’t mean they would start at those figures – definitely not. RoG is only at €45,000 this year, and Galileo €37,500. Both will increase in value for next year – Galileo more so than RoG at this point certainly.
Jackane,
Grandera stands in Japan not China and whilst his fee is 2000000 yen since there are 149.12 yen to the euro and 117 yen to the $Grandera’s fee is actually 13400 euro or $16000!
Unless Rock of Gibralter’s 2y0’s improve rapidly his fee will not rise this year and whilst Galileo’s fee will undoubtedly increase that is because of his stud record – he is far and away the leading second season sire.
Montjeu because of his fantastic season last year rose from 20 to 75000 euro’s but is unlikely to increase markedly this year and the idea that Dylan Thomas who is rated by Timeform and the official handicapper some 9 lbs below and whose racing record is far worse could as an unproven sire start above Montjeu is risible.
Mark of Esteem (rated by Timeform a better horse than George Washington by 13lbs) started at £20000 but sunk to £5-7000 depite a classic winner in his first crop and multiple stakes winners in Sir percy’s 2y0 season.
You must get your basic research right if you are to write articles that will be read by industry professionals.
Ah ok, apologies about Grandera – didn’t realise Japan also used yen.
Rock of Gibraltar has 2 blacktype – a very good one in Eagle Mountain, and an unknown one in Roxan.
O’Brien has been outlining plans for DT, highlighting either the BC Classic or turf. Clearly if they are already thinking of the Classic, they think he will go on the dirt – they’re even looking at sending him to Dubai for the World Cup meeting, something I thought Ballydoyle would never do with any horse.
Oratorio last year in the Classic I think was a bit of a rush job – they didn’t really know what to do with him after the Champion Stakes and just wanted to get another race into him.
But about the breeding again – Montjeu was a bit of a nutter himself, but hasn’t done him any damage at all at stud. And quite how it can be seen as bad to be related to Grandera is beyond me.
Jack, this is the problem you have.
You say you are eager to learn and want to understand more.
You spout a load of badly researched rubbish.
People politely point out that you have your facts wrong.
You back-track and witter and make excuses – when you would be far better off saying ‘ok, I need to learn more about this’.
Stallion fees are not very volatile – only really outstanding first crops like Giant’s Causeway, Galileo or Montjeu’s can prompt a big rise (and that is after their first classic season).
Two black-type horses do not count as an outstanding season.  One Classic win does not make a desirable stallion prospect.  Montjeu (not a nutter on the racecourse) and Giant’s Causeway were far better racehorses than George or Dylan.
Instead of thinking that these two horses are the new Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerard, you should compare like with like.
Coolmore already stand a Guineas winning son of Danehill.  He started off at €35,000  (you keep saying things like ‘only €45,000/only £30,000.  That’s quite high, you know). ÂÂÂ
Coolmore already stand an Irish Champion winning son of Danehill.  He started off at €30,000.
Have another guess at a realistic starting price for George Washington and Dylan Thomas. ÂÂÂ
Jack have to agree, you should listen and get your facts sorted out.. I think your believing your own little Ballydoyle PR machine. Funny as it is, DT will never ever make that money (I reckon £25,000+ if he was to retire now, £35,000+ if he was to win the BC). GW again will struggle to command anymore that £30,000 if he was to retire now, even that might be a bit high.. Have a look at footsteps in the sand fees £25,000, unbeaten guineas winner, so given GW has won a few G1’s at 2 then he may commend more.. But he is also mental.
I remember the first time I looked at the coomore site, I could not believe the money they charge… madness!!
Jack –
If you want to succeed you really have to learn and the first thing you have to learn is to listen.
Quote from Galejade – "You must get your basic research right if you are to write articles that will be read by industry professionals."
Unless your facts are spot on Jack you will be hung out to dry. I really don’t weant to knock you as you seem an enthusiastic person with a real ambition but you don’t seem to be able to take stuff on board and you will need to do that.
One point regarding Coolmore – the prices they advertise are not always those paid. There are deals and then there are deals on top of deals.
"One point regarding Coolmore – the prices they advertise are not always those paid. There are deals and then there are deals on top of deals".
Absolutely. Sometimes it is in a stallion stud’s interest to suggest their boy is a bargain. Sometimes it is in their interest to suggest he is the most valuable horse in the world – particularly if they have paternal half-brothers to sell.
I think Jack you have to cease viewing racing stables as substitutes for Arsenal
No racing stable is as hypocritical, charmless and sanctimonious as that institution :)
But all the same, blind enthusiasm and outright dislike for one or other team in racing simply doesnt really sit comfortably with most followers of the game. There will be shades of opinion, but thankfully, thats all it is
If you write stuff that is heavily slanted then no one will take it seriously.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.