- This topic has 22 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Frankel was brilliant racehorse without a doubt and visually his races looked great. Who can forget his brilliance in 2011 guineas and 2012 royal ascot. But the fact remains, he never raced outside England. Not even travelled to Ireland.
Enable on the other hand has done it all both in UK and around the world. With dual arc win and now with a breeders cup, is it safe to say she has surpassed Frankel in greatness?
Discuss.
Depends on your definition of greatness.
I suppose the most conventional measure of greatness would be the horses final master rating, of which Frankel’s was 147. Enable before todays race was 134 (both Timeform). I doubt Enable beating the 122 rated Magical by a short distance will have Frankel losing too much sleep this evening.
Considering these ratings are compiled taking into account the ability of the competition, the weight difference between competitors, overall and sectional race times, surface raced on, ages, margins separating the runners etc…I’d also consider them definitive. What country they were achieved in is immaterial imo.
So I’d say no, Enable as good as she is, has not surpassed Frankel in greatness.
I am inclined to not appear to take anything away from either horse ( or any other horse entitled to be called ‘great’) by trying to compare them…..both were untouchably great and brilliantly campaigned once in a lifetime animals,no ifs or buts.
Having had a sizeable bet on Enable in the one race of her career where she did get beaten, as a stable second string to Shutter Speed at Newbury, I would unashamedly be inclined to place a heavier weighting on the ”going unbeaten” element of horses careers when comparing overall greatness
Not yet imo but still could. Ratings is one thing but other ways of defining greatest.
Frankel had 10 Group 1 wins.
Enable currently on 7. Frankie was jokingly begging for Enable to be kept in training with Lord Grim saying they will discuss it and do what is best for the horse. Considering her setback she could of had a King George, Coronation Cup and maybe a Prince of Wales. If she stays in training I wonder what route they will map out.
Enable has also taking out some good prize money, what is the difference between the two on that count although it does increase the majority at the years go on so not a proper leveller.Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
Interesting question mmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Frankel ten group ones all in the UK
Enable seven group ones in three different countries.I am inclined towards Enable because of the travelling but nothing will ever surpass Frankel in the Guineas!!
OPEN MOUTHED is the best description of my reaction.
Enable is a top-class filly who’ll probably end her career rated amongst the best of her sex in the mid-to-high 130s
Her profile (and rating) remind me of those other top fillies: Miesque (10 G1 Eng, Fr, USA) Triptych (9 G1 Eng, Fr) Habibti (8 G1 Eng, Fr, Ire)
Great fillies all but if you choose to systemize the rather nebulous equivocal term ‘greatness’ with cold, hard form ratings then neither Enable nor the other three are within about 10lbs of Frankel; and not many others are either
Frankel was greater than the great Enable: fair enough
Is Enable to be kept in training as a 5yo? Hope so
Cold hard Timeform, keep Enable master rated at 134 after Saturday, describing her overall as “an outstanding filly”, but not at her “brilliant best” on both runs in 2018.
About right imo. Lets hope we’ll see her next year.
No – all ratings aside there is also the wow factor and that tingling feeling that Frankel gave me (pretty much every time he set foot on the racecourse from the time of that Doncaster conditions race until the Champions Stakes) that Enable as good as she is has never done.
For me she is a very good filly/mare who I would place in the same company as the likes of Triptych, Miesque, Indian Skimmer, Oh So Sharp, Allez France, Treve, Snow Fairy, Ouija Board & Dahlia.
Doesn’t matter where a horse runs, has nothing to do with “greatness”. If it did then is Benbatl the greatest racehorse of 2018? Won Group 1’s in Dubai, Germany and Australia, and yet in ability is quite a long way inferior to the best horses that raced purely in Britain and Ireland alone.
Neither does the number of “Group 1” victories have anything to do with it. Some Group 1’s take less winning than other Group 1’s around the World, different nations have different abilities. In alphabetical order, Britain, France and Ireland have the best quality of racing in Europe. Germany can have an occasional horse capable of taking on the best; but generally they’re a little below GB, Fr and Ire. Although saying that, France has struggled to keep up in the last few years. USA’s racing generally equal to the European triumverate.
But even an individual Group 1 can vary from year to year. The same Group 1 can also vary from one year to the next. Enable put up an excellent performance to win her first Arc, but her second Arc was not of the same standard – ditto Treve… And yet in some people’s opinion winning a second Arc makes them of superior quality. Consistency can be rewarded in “greatness”; but plain fact of the matter is both Enable and Treve won their second Arcs only because there was not a better horse in the race. If judging greatness by number of victories and/or being unbeaten then it is rewarding horses for running against inferior rivals.
There is no perfect way of comparing greatness, but ratings are by far the best way. How can “The greatest” have inferior ability to other horses? It wouldn’t make sense.
Not only did Frankel put up the best ever performance – with a Timeform rating of 147, he also put up more individual 140+ performances than anyone else. Enable’s best of 134 is 13 lbs inferior and this year’s form is a fair bit worse than that. Although I myself prefer to add the 3 lbs sex allowance to fillies and mares (so Enable 137) in order to get a fairer comparisson – had they actually met under race conditions.
If we are to mark Frankel down for not taking on the best USA could muster, are we to mark Enable down for not going to Australia? Or Winx down for not coming to Britain?
No, not in my opinion. Like every horse in the World, Enable, Winx, Accelerate, Frankel etc can only be rated on the other horses he/she took on, how far those horses were beaten and how easily. What Enable or any horse could’ve done higher than “form” is pure speculation. ie Any horse could possibly be better than its rating but can not be rated as such. History is littered with horses who may or may not be better than their rating and is impossible to say one way or the other. Winx might be better, might not – because…
Australia has many Group 1 races, but the general standard (at least away from their sprinters) is not of the same ability as British, Irish, French and American mile/middle-distance Group 1’s. Time after time Winx beats up inferior rivals; rivals which may well be keeping her rating lower than it could be. Had she raced in Britain against eg Enable, could have inspired her to another level. Some horses will show what they can do no matter what the opposition. ie Frankel would just go further and further clear. Those held up for a late run will seldom show that brilliance in form terms, so in order to show their own full ability there’s a greater reliance on standard of opposition. As it stands – Winx must be rated only on what’s actually been achieved – against what she’s raced against. That said, had she raced and been beaten in Britain – it would not alter what she achieved in Oz, she’s truly outstanding! imo At least the equal of Enable.
Value Is EverythingYou are correct ginger but is ‘Greatness different to the Greatest’..?
For example Arkle would rate higher in ratings and be classed as the greatest but Red Rum’s achievements in the Grand National make him immortal to the General public.Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
True Nathan but then some of Arkle’s weight carrying performances make him immortal to an older generation of the general public and that is usually a rod that is held against the current top chasers as very rarely are the asked to run outside of level weight races.
Measuring greatness I feel is much more subective than measuring who the greatest actually is, because what individual people feel is a particular measure of greatness is not always shared by another person i.e. unbeaten records, winning distances, number of group/grade 1 races won, competition (or lack thereof), ground condition, race distances, racing overseas etc. All of those would have varying levels of importance depending on who you ask
To be classed as the greatest there is usually a generally agreed upon set of parameters in place that you can measure contenders against to find out who/what takes the top spot.
Good news
She stays in training, if reports are correct.Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.