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Hello,
I’m an American who is an avid jumps fan. I love the Grand National. I sure hope there are no changes made to the race. I think jump racing is safe (as much as any such sport can reasonably be).
I have almost been "run out of town" so to speak, on some of the U.S. message boards. There are alot of hostile feelings about the running of the GN…what with two horses being killed.
I said that it was basically a fluke. I have read articles in British horseracing newspapers that agree with my view. However, I don’t think the messege is getting through some very thick skulls.
I think Paul Nichols said it best when he said "People need to grow up, this is a sport!"
Hello,
I’m an American who is an avid jumps fan. I love the Grand National. I sure hope there are no changes made to the race. I think jump racing is safe (as much as any such sport can reasonably be).
I have almost been "run out of town" so to speak, on some of the U.S. message boards. There are alot of hostile feelings about the running of the GN…what with two horses being killed.
I said that it was basically a fluke. I have read articles in British horseracing newspapers that agree with my view. However, I don’t think the messege is getting through some very thick skulls.
I think Paul Nichols said it best when he said "People need to grow up, this is a sport!"
But it’s not a fluke. Two horses were killed last year as well. When no horses are killed in the Grand National it’s a fluke.
This is indeed a sport, but in how many sports do we expect there to be dead athletes at the end of a major event?
Im not a bunny hugger and I believe that racehorses are for racing and to not allow them to race would be cruel.
But equally cruel is subjecting them to a dangerous trappy ‘race’ where even the best horses can be killled. According to Pete did nothing wrong, and our gold cup winner is dead.
I’m finished with it. 25 years that started as a love affair, went through years of putting up with each other, a few years of being ashamed to admit to it in public, a couple of years of wanting a divorce, now I’d be happy for a hitman to take her out.
The fact is in every other race a fatality is unexpected. In this race death to on average a horse in every running is the expected outcome. I can’t live with that and Im deeply worried about those on this board who think saturdays carnage was a ‘great spectacle’.
Reduce the field yes. But whats the point? That makes it another long distance handicap over stupid fences and we’ve already got one of those, tucked away at the end of the first days card at the festival. Out of sight where it doesn’t show itself up in public.
Well,
Let’s face it…the GN has been a bit unlucky the last couple of years. But, lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The GN is one of the greatest spectacles in the world.
It is also very rare for horses to be hurt in jump racing…I realize everyone has their own idea of what that is…
However, you can go to the jumps several times a year and never see a horse put down.
Lets get real here and back this GN like there is no tomorrow. Now is the time to support the great sport… Not get timid and give in to people who profess to love horses, but want to wipe the sport out. This could only have a very tragic outcome for the horses…
and mankind….as far as I’m concerned.
Almost every conversation I’ve had with non-racing people over the Grand National over the last few days has resulted in them referencing the deaths. It (racing’s corner) is a difficult position to defend I’m afraid.
There is a growing awareness of the dangers of the national and I perceive a growing discomfort among the general ‘non-racing’ public about the event. I think that’s because I remember thirty years ago after a national the deaths simply weren’t widely reported. In fact, I can remember (I think) when they weren’t reported at all during the BBC broadcast and can remember when they started mentioning them (at the end of the programme as I recall). Now they are reported as soon as the info is available and it is now a news story in itself whereas in the past it may have had passing mention. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be (a story), just trying to explain/rationalise the growing public awareness.
So what, you might say. Let them leave us to it.
I’m afraid that isn’t the way of the world and people (such as Matt Chapman) who are proposing a ‘if they don’t like it then tough’ approach need to wake up to the fact that racing simply won’t be allowed to carry on regardless. It’s becoming clear that something needs to change. Yes, perhaps it won’t be the national we grew up with (it already isn’t that) if the number of runners is reduced or if drops are removed, etc, but at least we may be allowed, by public consent, to keep it. I can feel that public consent slipping slowly away as things stand.
I’ll be very interested to see the findings of the BHA review of this year’s race and what data/evidence they use to support any action/inaction.
Out of interest, does anyone have faller/fatality data for the Topham and/or Foxhunters over the last ten years?
Corm, since 86, 14 have died in The Topham
2 fell fatally @ The first (13th/29th)
2 fell fatally @ The Chair
1 fell fatally @ Bechers
1 broke leg landing @ Bechers
2 fell fatally @ 4th/20th
1 fell fatally as loose horse @ 12th/28th
1 fell fatally @ 5th/21st
1 collapsed after finishing
2 fell fatally @ Valentines
1 Broke leg whilst runningThe rate of attrition is just slightly less in The Foxhunters I think! I make it 2 in The Becher, one @ 10th/26th, and 1 @ The Chair. Don’t know what happened to Kisslan Des Gallas in 2006, he took a heavy fall, and certainly didn’t race again.
Apologies in advance for any omissions!
The opposition to NH racing is natural in the world we live in. There has always been moral pushback against sports & activities on the margin. The same forces that outlawed stuff like dogfighting in the past are in this age zeroing on horse racing, and NH racing is an EXTREMELY easy target.
I’m relatively new to racing (compared to most on this forum) so perhaps I can provide a bit of an outsider’s perspective. The flat has always been my go for a myriad of reasons. Watching horses break down is terribly upsetting, but I accept the consequences as a fact of the sport, and I take solace in the fact that my jurisdiction does their very best.
But NH racing is difficult to defend. Yes, there is a great history and tradition. But flat racing is much safer and the far bigger product in terms of revenue, bloodstock, worldwide appeal, everything. To outsiders, jumping/hurdling is a dangerous and not widely popular sport that should be phased out. I myself don’t have a strong opinion on that issue.
I usually watch with some interest the biggest chases on the calender, but the Grand National is a definite exception. Any event in which such a large percentage of horses fail to finish on a yearly basis should not be run in my opinion. The first time I watched the race I thought it looked like a cavalry charge into enemy fire.
Corm, I’m interested in your line that "racing simply won’t be allowed to carry on regardless". Who exactly is in a position to order either a radical redefinition or even the abolition of the Grand National? The Government?
However strong the immediate public reaction to Saturday’s events, it would still be a brave move to deprive the GBP of one of the calendar’s sporting highlights.
I didn’t see Matt Chapman’s words but I am in his, and Paul Nicholls’s, camp. It’s a hard, tough event and that’s part of what makes it great.
Of course Aintree should do everything in its power to ensure safety, as far as that is possible. But I hope to see a robust defence of the race from the course and the sport’s rulers.
If you shorten the distance, convert the fences to park jumps, widen them or narrow them, restrict the field to 20, you don’t automatically guarantee a fall in the attrition rate.
It also concerns me that if racing does buckle under the weight of what (on last year’s evidence) will be a short-lived public outcry, it will be the thin end of the wedge.
What happens the next time a horse dies in the Gold Cup? In the Derby?
I’m certainly of the belief that some of the changes to the fences have made things worse.
Very interesting to read a jockey’s post race opinion that in previous years people respected Bechers and spread out. He said that now the drop had been levelled more people wanted to run at the inner causing squeezing and lack of room to measure strides plus if one comes down he is more likely to bring others down.
I also think that with the quicker ground and higher quality horses they are basically racing too fast early on.
I wouldn’t want to lose the intinsic nature of the National but if the ground is well watered and the field size lowered to 30 then I hope some of this years problems may lessen.
Nobody thinks that the Topham is any less of a test for having smaller fields.
As regards a mention of "Class war" I think it can be true. On some non-specialist forums I’ve been defending the GN and the threads often degenerate as posters lump the GN in with hunting. It then can become a class thing which is a bit bizarre given we know the huge cross section of society which loves racing.
As regards a mention of "Class war" I think it can be true. On some non-specialist forums I’ve been defending the GN and the threads often degenerate as posters lump the GN in with hunting. It then can become a class thing which is a bit bizarre given we know the huge cross section of society which loves racing.
To be fair though, racing would do well to distance itself from hunting given it’s got a predominantly upper-middle class following and is a pastime where the death of an animal is the desired outcome. Quite the opposite of what RFC want to be portraying in this day and age.
I think some of you are overdoing the 4 deaths in 2 years stat. Stop looking at numbers, and start looking at facts (being that the world isn’t black and white).
The deaths since 2000.
2000 – None
2001 – None
2002 – Manx Magic Heavy fall at the 4th 2nd time round (fence has been modified this year) Last Fling – Canal Turn but tiring at the time – not that heavy a fall – may have had heart attack
2003 – Goguenard – another horse jumped on his back when landing on fence.
2004 – None
2005 – Tyneandtyneagain – Running loose. Freak accident other horse jumped on his back.
2006 – None
2007 – Graphic Approach – Running loose in extreme heat – didn’t get caught. Collapsed.
2008 – McKelvey – Running loose – collided with a rail.
2009 – Hear the Echo – collapsed and died (2 or 3 false starts that year in hot conditions)
2010 – None
2011 – Ornais heavy fall at the 4th (fence modified this year). Dooney’s Gate – effectively refused Becher’s, forced over by crowding, landed on neck.
2012 – Synchronised – Running loose – broke leg. I still think it was on the flat between the 10th and 11th. According To Pete – in the leading 6 runners when brought down causing a broken leg – There was a faller and a brought down in Big Buck’s race field of 8/9 and could have happened there.So in 12 years of the National I make that 1 collapse, 1 possible collapse, 4 running loose, 2 deaths caused by crowding, 1 death caused by brought down, 2 at a fence that has therefore been modified.
So therefore your issues are –
1) Loose horses need to be caught earlier.
2) Possibility of overcrowding therefore cause redesign to encourage wide runners, widening of fences, or reduce field to 35 (then 30 if continued problems).
3) The starting procedure. Too fast to the first fence, jockey’s not listening, and false starts meaning horses are hyped up and running further than 4m 4f (following a lengthy procession and build up)The "deadly" Becher’s has only caused 1 horrible pre 90s Becher’s like death and that was poor Eudipe in 1999 (an independent fall neck first).
The Topham and Foxhunters have produced half the deaths of the National, but when you add the both of them up – a similar number to the National itself (despite having smaller fields and 1 circuit of the course).
The National itself didn’t have a single death due to falling with a jockey on board between 2004 and 2010.
When it comes to attrition rates surely the true figures should be based on how many horses that run in the National are never any good as racehorses again?
That figure should be far more disturbing to those who claim that the risk is minimal. Unless human beings start to breed racehorses more suited to the extreme distance of the National, then logically it cannot be reasonably expected to survive in its present guise.After all they used to run flat races over the Beacon Course (usually in heats), but the breed is no longer suited by such distances so these extreme tests of stamina have died out due to irrelevance.
As the thoroughbred evolves via the breeding programme so must the contests that are set to prove their mettle as equine athletes.
Corm, I’m interested in your line that "racing simply won’t be allowed to carry on regardless". Who exactly is in a position to order either a radical redefinition or even the abolition of the Grand National? The Government?
The media and the public Broadsword. If the race were to lose public support (and I detect a weakening of the public’s support for the national in the face of the reports of the deaths over last couple of years based on personal experiences) then it would be doomed.
Now, I don’t think it’s reached that point, or anywhere near it, but another couple of bad years from a fatality perspective and the pressure would ratchet up significantly IMO.
I’m a Grand National supporter, it is the race that ignited my passion for racing and I love it dearly, but we couldn’t carry on losing two horses a year and still defend the race could we?
I’d be really interested to hear of the experience of others who’ve been talking about the Grand National with non-racing friends and acquaintances.
As regards a mention of "Class war" I think it can be true. On some non-specialist forums I’ve been defending the GN and the threads often degenerate as posters lump the GN in with hunting. It then can become a class thing which is a bit bizarre given we know the huge cross section of society which loves racing.
To be fair though, racing would do well to distance itself from hunting given it’s got a predominantly upper-middle class following and is a pastime where the death of an animal is the desired outcome. Quite the opposite of what RFC want to be portraying in this day and age.
You can foxhunt for years and never see a fox get killed. In many cases it’s the fox who is in control of the situation and will lead the hunt around in circles until he gets bored.
There’s also the fact that fox, and more importantly
coyote
hunting is a public service-these animals are in no way endangered and kill livestock and horses. Coyotes are nasty things, impossible to hunt on foot, and too smart for traps.
I’ve dissected the BHA’s Grand National Review Group report published in November 2011.
There’s a fair amount of hard data in it, some going back to 1990, analysing non-completions and looking at the possible reasons.
It’s too big to post here but if anyone is interested it is at wp.me/p1o7dN-JQ
I hope I’m correct in saying this as I haven’t looked at any daily papers but I assume that there has been no front page news regarding the injury to Sunnyhillboy. The racing media have a field day post National and are happy to fuel the outcry to end the race. The Sun must have been very torn in the aftermath, wanting to show scenes of horror and yet wanting to boast of how their tipster told everyone to back the winner.
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