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Grade 1 field sizes

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  • #1677495
    Avatar photoRefuse To Bend
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    Ignoring novice events the 2023/24 season has so far had six Grade 1 races, total runners across all races, 33 ten of these made up by the Long Walk.

    Betfair Chase – 4 runners (previous season – 5)
    Fighting Fifth – 4 runners (5)
    Tingle Creek – 4 runners (6)
    Long Walk – 10 runners (5)
    Christmas Hurdle – 5 runners (5)
    King George – 6 runners (9)

    It is highly possible the Clarence House will have three runners. Whilst these fields may have quality over quantity it is very disappointing for sponsors and spectators, the only one of the above I bet on was the Long Walk.

    The more I know the less I understand.

    #1677496
    Avatar photoGingertipster
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    Truth is there are so few British trained Grade 1 horses and too many opportunities for those we have.

    (And by “Grade 1” I mean capable of putting up a rating that would see them placed in the Grade 1 in just an average year).

    Value Is Everything
    #1677497
    Avatar photoGingertipster
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    • Total Posts 34707

    Ironically, the Long Walk was the race where there were no proper Grade 1 horses in the race… Or at least the Grade 1 horses were probably on the downgrade. Paisley Park and Champ even then 11 year olds and Dashel Drasher going to be 11 only a week after the race… Which encouraged sub-standard horses – that just might improve a little – to have a go at winning a Grade 1.

    Value Is Everything
    #1677499
    Helcatmudwrestler
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    • Total Posts 788

    It’s very sad to see NH racing sliding in UK , I would be looking at UK trainers winning no more than three or four races at Cheltenham , Champion Hurdle , maybe Champion Chase and grab a handicap or maybe Triumph as look a couple decent ones for that . Bar that I cannot see anything to worry the Irish or French .

    #1677500
    Avatar photoIanDavies
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    • Total Posts 12996

    Back in the day there were a lot fewer Pattern events over Jumps than on the Flat for a reason.

    There wasn’t enough quality and there were instead many fascinating Limited Handicaps and Handicaps.

    Many will remember Silver Buck carrying 12st7lb to victory at Market Rasen prior to winning the Cheltenham Gold Cup in 1982 and stable mate Bregawn won at Hereford before winning it in 1983.

    And the Hennessy as was frequently attracted Cheltenham Gold Cup winners.

    Those really were the days.

    Change isn’t always progress and there are just too many soft targets for the few Grade 1 horses in training nowadays.

    I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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    #1677512
    Avatar photoAndyRAC
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    I’m fed up of hearing the ‘quality over quantity’ excuse for Gd1 races. One or two times yes, but it’s virtually every Gd1……We haven’t got the horses for all these Gd1 races. Most need downgrading…..especially the novice races pre spring festival time.

    And there should only be 2 per division per season, like there used to be before they went mad. No need for Gd1 races at both Cheltenham and Aintree; one or the other, NOT both.

    #1677519
    Avatar photoMiss Woodford
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    • Total Posts 1700

    I’ve said it before – there would be enough horses for all the G1s if top horses raced a full season instead of one or two then off till Cheltenham.

    #1677524
    Avatar photoRefuse To Bend
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    These are the novice events I excluded in my OP. Four races with a total of 30 runners, three short of the six senior races.

    Henry VIII – 6 runners (previous season – 4)
    Kauto Star – 6 runners (5)
    Formby (aka Tolworth) – 9 runners (6)
    Challow – 9 runners (12)

    No surprise the two hurdle events attracted bigger fields.

    The more I know the less I understand.

    #1677527
    Avatar photoIanDavies
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    You can’t force connections to run their horses in these races.

    Given that, there are simply too many of them.

    I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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    #1677530
    Richard88
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    ‘You can’t force connections to run their horses in these races.’

    Precisely. You also cannot force people through the gates, punters to bet on races or viewers to switch their televisions to ITV on a Saturday afternoon. Given that there are rather more fans and punters than owners, We The People hold the power here. I would therefore suggest that RTB’s stance of only betting on the race with what he (I assume he based on the picture) sees as an acceptable field size is a very sensible one.

    Money talks and if we all walked away so would sponsors, levy would dwindle and something would soon happen.

    #1677532
    TheTinMan87
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    • Total Posts 1319

    If you look at the best of what we have according to the handicapper:
    Chases:
    Shishkin 173
    Jonbon 170
    Bravemansgame 170
    L’Homme Presse 170
    Stage Star 166
    Ahoy Senor 166
    Royale Pagaille 166
    Protektorat 165
    Editeur Du Gite 162
    Edwardstone 162
    The Real Whacker 162
    Pic D’Orhy 162
    Nassalam 161

    13 horses rated over 160 who’d be suitable for open G1’s, by my reckoning only 3 of them are 2 milers, most of them are stayers. Very rarely will we get visitors from Ireland for our G1’s.

    Hurdlers:
    Constitution Hill 175
    Shishkin 163
    No other horses rated above 158 (Not So Sleepy) over hurdles.

    In Ireland, I won’t list them all but there are 23 horses rated over 160 over fences but only 5 over 160 over hurdles. So in total of the entire horse population in UK and IRE only 7 horses are worthy of a 160+ mark over hurdles and if you took Constitution Hill and State Man out of the equation there is no other hurdler rated higher than Shishkin whose mark looks a bit dubious anyway, next highest is Teahupoo on 161.

    So it seems to me there’s a big problem with quality of hurdler generally. A couple of theories I have is 1) owners want chasers not hurdlers which leads to 2) horses spend too long progressing from points to bumpers to novice hurdlers that they then skip open company hurdling and go novice chasing 3) they skip to novice chasing to avoid a superstar in the open division (Marine National?).

    Perhaps a problem on the breeding side too regards the lack of quality 2M chasers and hurdlers? Seems we have a lot of stayers these days but struggle for depth in the speed focused events.

    #1677534
    Avatar photoNathan Hughes
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    • Total Posts 34041

    “I’m fed up of hearing the ‘quality over quantity’ excuse for Gd1 races.”

    Yet, if Constitution Hill doesn’t turn up to a grade 1 the quantity should be jumping all over it.. :scratch:

    Charles Darwin to conquer the World

    #1677537
    TheTinMan87
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    Another thing I missed off which undoubtedly affects the 2M division over fences is the Ryanair and Turners existing in the first place. I guess most horses unless they are entirely speed end up as stayers eventually (Shishkin) but having a novice intermediate race encourages that transition from speed to staying at an earlier stage in a horses career and damages the 2M division imo.

    #1677539
    Avatar photoRefuse To Bend
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    The Champion Hurdle currently has 22 entries, assuming Constitution Hill comes to the party how many of those will actually show up. Last year there was 7 and I suspect seeing less this season.

    The more I know the less I understand.

    #1677540
    Avatar photoCork All Star
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    “Money talks and if we all walked away so would sponsors, levy would dwindle and something would soon happen.”

    I think that might happen.

    The National Hunt season up to Cheltenham does not work. Too much of it is boring. I am probably going to be out and about next Saturday afternoon. I doubt I will miss much.

    I first became seriously interested in racing in my late teenage years. Would I become interested in the sport if I was a teenager today? I am honestly not sure I would.

    Given how poor much of the season is now, I would not blame anyone for deciding they have better things to do with their time and money. Admission fees for weekend fixtures are not cheap and too often are poor value for money.

    The Clarence House Chase (assuming it goes ahead) is a case in point. It could be a 3 or 4 runner field offering poor betting. Maybe my memory is playing tricks but didn’t it used to be the Victor Chandler Chase and a handicap of some kind?

    Even the Cheltenham festival is not as competitive as it should be. The attached article by Kevin Blake shows in the 6 years from 2002 to 2007, 5 of those years had no odds on favourites. Since then there has been at least 1 every year, with 7 in 2021:

    https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/kevin-blake/08-january-2024/goodbye,-christmas…hello,-chelltenham

    #1677541
    Avatar photoIanDavies
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    “We The People hold the power here. I would therefore suggest that RTB’s stance of only betting on the race with what he (I assume he based on the picture) sees as an acceptable field size is a very sensible one.”

    I smell revolution, insurrection, and uprising stemming from Brother Richard!

    Bring it on!

    I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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    #1677544
    Avatar photoRefuse To Bend
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    Small field races for me are to watch only especially when the favourite is essentially nailed on, interesting to watch but not a betting opportunity. I doubt the sponsors are happy even if a “star” shows their face and surely the betting turnover can’t be great.

    The more I know the less I understand.

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