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Quote: from Aidan on 2:04 pm on Oct. 20, 2006[br]Except Jim Bolger said the same about Nappy Tander a couple of years back…..
lol…well anybody can just be plain wrong sometimes. Probably was his best horse at home.
SHL
Lets look at george as a sire seriously.
1. By Danehill (a proven sire) out of Bordighera (mare of GW and Gradera so a proven mare). He has good strong bloodlines either side of his pedigree.
2. Champion 2yo, easily the best of generation.
3. Looks to be champion 3yo after what has been an unlucky season for him but featured two devastating performances in the guineas and QE confirming to be the best miler of his generation.
4. Has never thrown in a total shocker, even when he was injured and on his unprepped return in a prep race he still managed 2nd and third. People seem to forget that george was pulled out of a race the previous week at the curragh because he wasnt ready to run (which subsequently also ruled him out of the prix moulin), and so there was a doubt about how ready he was for the Celebration mile, which was confirmed when he looked nowhere near ready to run, in race.
They are now leaning towards trying him in the BC Classic which I hope he can win.
Geore has all the credentials of a good sire (lets face it, he was only ever injured once, bad injury though it was, but he came back and treated everything with contempt)
Now everyone is doubting him as a sire as he is going to be retired at the end of his 3yo career, I for one would love to see him stay in training. Seriously though, he is not just a great horse, he is a great horse owned by one of the biggest stud operations in the world (more specifically the biggest shareholder in him is magnier, who generally isnt such a fan of keeping horses in training, especially when they stand out as much as GW), we all knew he was going to be retired to stud asap. Is anyone really shocked by it?
I have no doubts about georges ability as a horse and I have no doubts about his ability as a sire, he will undoubtably sire alot of highly strung sorts but im sure some will be extremely smart.
Also, Rock of Gibraltar, unlike Giants Causeway, consitant as he was never got a rating above 130 and so far has not sired anything special from his first crop (despite coolmore putting him against some of the best broodmares around), Eagle Mountain probably being the best of an average looking bunch.
OK, lets get one thing completely clear.  George Washington does NOT have a stallion’s pedigree.  Grandera was a bolt from the blue in a family that was, and continues to be on different branches, total rubbish on the flat.
George and Grandera have shown that Bordighera herself is a broodmare of merit, but no-one, least of all Christy Grassick, should be under any illusion that they are from stock that has produced proven sires.
Yes, he’s a terrific horse, a worthy champion of this year’s 3yos and winning at the Breeders’ Cup would be an unbelieveable achievement.
But I get very tired of people constantly talking up the latest sensation to the point of misinformation.
He is not the Messiah.
Bulwark’s analysis is sensible (apart from the ‘strong bloodlines’) and could equally, or better apply to ROG, GC, Shamardal, or half a dozen others from the last 15 years.
Quote: from Sal on 6:14 pm on Oct. 20, 2006[br]<br>He is not the Messiah.<br>
He’s a very naughty boy
<br>——————————————————————————–<br>Quote: from Sal on 6:14 pm on Oct. 20, 2006
He is not the Messiah.
——————————————————————————–
He’s a very naughty boy
 PMSL, Genius HJ :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
OK, lets get one thing completely clear. George Washington does NOT have a stallion’s pedigree.
Indeed, though the same could have been said of Montjeu and he is has done pretty well. There have been numerous horses gone to stud with typical "stallion" pedigrees yet have come up short. George Washington is by Danehill (has produced top class stallions such as Danehill Dancer and of course is from the Danzig line) out of a mare who has now produced two Group 1 winners. Taking into account the quality of mares he will certainly recieve from Coolmore in his first year and there is every chance of success.
If memory serves me correctly isn’t Rock Of Gibraltar is very closely inbred to Northern Dancer….more so than even the norm now? Will look that up tomorrow. Sorry but George Washington’s female side looks much stronger to me than Rock Of Gibraltars….that was the reason why Offshore Bloom went for such little money at the sales.
There is every probability that George will make a good sire – as you say a weak female line is not necessarily a bar to success.
It was the assertion that George’s female line is not weak that I was questioning.
Take a look at the catalogue pages for either of them and you will see what I mean.  The only truly positive thing on George’s page is that he is half brother to Grandera – pre-Grandera Bordighera’s foal sold for only 4k and Grandera himself only fetched 25k as a yearling.  Bordighera’s sisters have fetched only 16k and 10k.
Offshore Boom was a lowly performing broodmare, lots of winners but not much quality, before ROG came along – which is why she was cheap as a 12yo broodmare.  However she at least had some quality in her background – mainly low-key American black-type but also Riverman.
Here is the link to George’s ped http://www.darley.co.uk/stallion_pedigr … era%20(IRE)  (they have understandably taken out all the French jumpers and just left it shorn of black-type).
Here is the link for ROG http://www.stallions.com.au/list/rock_o … tar_FL.asp
Explain to me exactly how George’s pedigree is ‘strong’ and you can have my job.
Happy with my own job thanks….:biggrin:
I think this is a better pedigree description for George Washington’s female side: http://www.stallions.com.au/list/grandera_FL.asp
Perhaps my view is slanted in the fact I do not like ROG breeding particular with the Northern Dancer influence as earlier mentioned plus the further cross of Northern Dancer’s dam Natalma in the fourth generation. Its interesting to note that his best runner in Europe (Eagle Mountain) is from a pretty different distaff background. Given the saturation of Northern Dancer bred mares and broodmares in Europe this (for me) puts GW’s female side in a much "stronger" position than ROGs.
Does this mean George Washington has a "strong" female line? Perhaps you are right, certainly when you look at the familys of such horses as Galileo and co. But in the context of the conversation of ROG and the qualities mentioned I think it is arguable.
When I say that George hails from a proven strong bloodline on his female side, I mean his broodmare clearly goes well on the danzig line and she is definitely proven through this, he does not hail from as solid a line as the likes of Galileo, Antonius Pius or some of coolmores other sires I was merely just trying to over emphasise the point in order to get the point settled easier, although in doing so i’ve actually started a new argument.lol<br>Grandera and GW from the same mare is not really a conincidence, also, if i remember George was the most expensive yearling in purchased Europe (at deauville sales i think) because of his physical presence. <br>Some mares just go with certain types sires, I like you Sal am a massive fan of the Mr P. mares, but at the same time I realise that certain combinations that just work, is it coincidence that the Saddlers Wells/Top Ville mare crossing has given us Yeats and Montjeu, I reckon not, you might disagree.<br>I am generally more of a fan of horses that can go against mr p. mares than ones that are already bred into that line from their sire (with colts anyway). Galileo seems to be proving to the contrary but I reckon yeats will start his career as quite a bargain sire (possibly even a jumps sire) and I reckon he will go well with the mr p line in the same way as Montjeu has through Motivator Papal Bull and to a lesser extent snowqualmie boy and I have dreamed.<br>I personally am more of a fan of the storm cat and Saddler wells lines than the danzig line and personally find danzig line horses not only quirky (and I realise that the others knock up quirky sorts too) but often hard to place distancewise. But nevertheless the danzig line knocks up good horses and George looks to me to be everypart a danzig line sire and very possibly a good one. He definitely has a place at stud on his breeding and trackform, there can be no doubting that. Remember that he will be put up against the best broodmaresfor his first year to prove he has his place in coolmore, he retires at the same time as Tabors Hurricane Run however and they may have to each split their share of mares, wheras RoG seems to have had almost 100% of effort put into his first crop, with less attention given to the Johannesburg first crop, which in my opinion is probably the better of the two.
Quote: from Sal on 6:14 pm on Oct. 20, 2006[br]OK, lets get one thing completely clear. George Washington does NOT have a stallion’s pedigree. Grandera was a bolt from the blue in a family that was, and continues to be on different branches, total rubbish on the flat.
So now thats two bolts out of the blue or is that a contradiction in terms :)
SHL
:) <br>Grandera was a bolt from the blue from poor stock.  Just because then George has proven himself to be talented does not mean that history is erased and the French jumpers in his background are now superstars.  Bordighera, as I said earlier, has shown herself to be a broodmare of merit, but this does not disguise the fact that the female line is exceptionally poor.
I think there is some confusion here about what the female line actually means.  It does not mean the degree of inbreeding, or the sire/damsire cross.  It is the quality of horses produced from the bottom line of the pedigree.  ROG has a weak bottom line compared to many sires, but George and Grandera’s is probably the weakest of Group 1 winners since Bollin Eric.
As far as the cross goes, BMG and Alysheba have a pretty similar record with the sire line, 3 BT performers each, although BMG has 2 Group winners to A’s 1.
Aidan makes a good point about the difficulty of inbreeding to a ND heavy cross such as ROG, but that is nothing to do with his female line, it comes from the sire/damsire cross.  But you are right, it does give George an advantage of ROG. It is a continuing problem with all sons of Danehill, but especially those that were not born from ND free mares, and it is one of the reasons why it would be helpful for Coolmore to shift some of their Danehill line stallions and get in some new blood.
Continually using the same crosses of ND and Mr P blood is very bad for the breed and will cause further problems with inbreeding in the near future.
I think I’ve started ranting about something else entirely now, so I’ll stop.
The Racing Post website reports " GEORGE WASHINGTON has been confirmed as a definite starter in the Breeders’ Cup Classic on the dirt at Churchill Downs on November 4"  I suppose this has been well flagged over the past week. An exciting night guaranteed I believe.<br>
Quote: from trackside528 on 5:36 pm on Oct. 9, 2006[br]One of the big problems (and certainly the one that scuppered Dylan Thomas on Saturday) is the speed they break from the gate. Whereas in Europe some horses virtually fall out of the stalls, American horses are tuned up to break alertly at speed… and if a horse thats never been on dirt breaks poorly, its curtains…<br>
<br>GW drawn 4 alongside Bernardini in 3 – maybe Mick K. can catch hold of Bernardini’s tail and have him drag George out of the stalls with him. :biggrin:
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