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Quote: from Sal on 10:14 am on Oct. 12, 2006[br]Yes, I completely agree about ROG and GC being benchmarks of toughness. George was compared to them somewhere else, and my point was that it is not just speed that makes a proper champion racehorse. I don’t think every champion has to win 7 Gr.1 races in a row either – but I think they have to show a little, just a little, more than George has done so far.
And being a Hawk Wing isn’t a bad thing, as you say, he had alot of admirable qualities, including one of the most awesome performances of the decade. But he was beaten more times than he won, and if we’re taking true champions then, despite his brilliance, he doesn’t make the grade. <br>
Yes but i cant believe that we are comparing HW to GW. HW only won 5 of his 12 races and ran some real stinkers. George washington seems to me to be far more constistent?? Using ROG and of course GC as measurements of toughness and guile are all very well but they needed toughness to overcome horses of similar abiltiy. GW is a better horse and doesnt yet have competition on a similar level to have to use any real battling qualities. In discussing HW, people have to make excuses for his losses. In discussing GW, people seem to want excuses for his winning. I find this bizarre.<br>
SHL
What SHL? Some real stinkers? Are we talking about the same horse?
Lame when ‘flopping’ in his last race the Queen Ann-Stinker?  <br>1st Grp1 Lockinge -Stinker?<br>BC Classic (on dirt) – Stinker? well OK AGREED<br>2nd Grp1 QEII – stinker?<br>2nd Grp1 Irish Champion – Stinker?<br>1st Grp1 Eclipse – Stinker?<br>2nd Grp 1 Derby – (beaten by multiple Grp 1 winner but 12 lengths clear of 3rd) – Stinker?<br>2nd Grp 1 2000 Guineas (beaten by multiple multiple Grp1 winner I really do think he should have won this) -Stinker<br>1st Grp 1 National in very fast time – Stinker?<br>1st Grp 2 EBF Futurity – Stinker?<br>2nd Grp 3 Railway (beaten by that multiple multiple Grp 1 winner) – Stinker?<br>1st in his debut maiden – Stinker?
Not too many excuses required here surely?
(Edited by apalachee at 10:44 pm on Oct. 17, 2006)<br>
(Edited by apalachee at 10:45 pm on Oct. 17, 2006)
Quote: from apalachee on 10:42 pm on Oct. 17, 2006[br]What SHL? Some real stinkers? Are we talking about the same horse?
Lame when ‘flopping’ in his last race the Queen Ann-Stinker? <br>1st Grp1 Lockinge -Stinker?<br>BC Classic (on dirt) – Stinker? well OK AGREED<br>2nd Grp1 QEII – stinker?<br>2nd Grp1 Irish Champion – Stinker?<br>1st Grp1 Eclipse – Stinker?<br>2nd Grp 1 Derby – (beaten by multiple Grp 1 winner but 12 lengths clear of 3rd) – Stinker?<br>2nd Grp 1 2000 Guineas (beaten by multiple multiple Grp1 winner I really do think he should have won this) -Stinker<br>1st Grp 1 National in very fast time – Stinker?<br>1st Grp 2 EBF Futurity – Stinker?<br>2nd Grp 3 Railway (beaten by that multiple multiple Grp 1 winner) – Stinker?<br>1st in his debut maiden – Stinker?
Not too many excuses required here surely?
(Edited by apalachee at 10:44 pm on Oct. 17, 2006)
<br>(Edited by apalachee at 10:45 pm on Oct. 17, 2006)<br>
I think you make a reasonable point here. However his last race was a stinker also and he is probably also the first horse to run second in a race and still be called a stinker in my opinion. That was his second in a p**s
poor Group 1 to where or when.SHL
Yeah that 2nd to Where or When was not brilliant. I completely disagree about the Queen Anne being called a stinker though. Did Lafi run a stinker the other day?
I see from the Independent Online website Chris McGrath in the Independent on Sunday said <br>"…. at Newmarket on Saturday…Aidan O’Brien revealed that George Washington will definitely tackle the American champion, Bernardini, in the Breeders’ Cup Classic at Churchill Downs on 4 November". Has anyone heard confirmation that George definitely goes for the Classic?
Quote: from Aidan on 9:19 pm on Oct. 15, 2006[br]Really disappointed to see them aim George at this, his near certain failure will put a real downer on a stunning career.
Delighted to see that Scorpion is heading to the Turf. Front running sort, loves fast ground, fresh horse….looks ideal if he is at his peak. <br>
I think we are in danger of all becoming members of the hype without substance brigade. In going for the classic, the horse has a much bigger chance of being beaten..despite what others are saying about the tight track on the mile course…but surely proclaiming heros and champions is something we do after seeing them winning against the odds. Why are we so afraid of seeing horses get beaten or face difficult challenges?? If he loses, no big deal as far as I am concerned. It wont make any of his other achievements seem less to me…if he wins, well that would be something.
SHL
I agree with you on this one SHL. Having been surprised and dissappointed intiallly with the news of a possible shot at the Classic, I have now come around to appreciating the ‘Why not give it a go’ view.
I never try to justify HW’s record. 5 out of 11 is not bad, though admittedly mediocre in terms of a champion.
However, the fact is that the time and manner in which HW won two of his races marked him out as a true champion by my definition. The clock never lies! Bedford and Coe were champions because they achieved world records.
Ovett, in my book, who was much more highly esteemed by the press and the public, as a competitor than Bedford, was a great runner, but not imo a champion on that level.
And even with his brief career, I rate GW a true champion. Whether he fulfils his potential as a champion is another matter all together.
But when it comes down to it, the criteria for a champion is largely a matter of opinion, in terms of how you weight raw speed with competitiveness.
How much is heart/courage, how much is mindless servility, and how much is loving docility (as it seemed to be in Horatio Nelson, for example).
Is there no place in an equine pantheon for a champion, who in no way lacked courage, but was "too much of a thinker for his own good?!!?" A maverick.
I like to think there should be, but I can also understand why heart/courage is  so highly prized and think that in a way, it reflects credit on those who do.
The problem, particularly with us Brits, though, is that the our competitive spirit can be thoroughly benighted – shallow and senseless. Witness the behaviour of so many of our football fans abroad.  Indeed, their behaviour at home. Basking in the glory of their teams, but ready to turn on a great player, at the drop of a hat, if they lose their form for a while.
(Edited by Grimes at 8:29 pm on Oct. 18, 2006)
surely proclaiming heros and champions is something we do after seeing them winning against the odds.
Absolutely, but a change of surface is completely different. Nijinsky, Sir Ivor, Sea Bird, Peintre Celebre, Montjeu etc etc did not have to prove themselves champions by winning on an alien surface, over a different trip at the end of the year.
Granted, but you do not have to achieve what they achieved to be a champion. They are greats.
Witness the behaviour of so many of our football fans abroad. Indeed, their behaviour at home. Basking in the glory of their teams, but ready to turn on a great player, at the drop of a hat, if they lose their form for a while.
Hardly what it was and go to italy and spain to see players turned against….ive seen it there…
A lot of pros say fans here more supportive in general
Clearly a run on the dirt is a bet to nothing so far as the horse’s future stud value is concerned. A win there catapults him into the stratosphere with American breeders. A loss and his stock (excuse the pun) will remain at current levels (a gallant loss and they might still improve). Winning the mile would improve his value but only marginally (US breeders want to breed dirt horses predominantly and will generally pay more for a sire who’s shown that he can handle it) while a run and a loss in the mile would potentially damage it.
Basically, regarding stud value the Classic is the highest return, lowest risk option.
Personally, while it would have been aesthetically pleasing to see him go out with a convincing win in the Mile, I think we kind of know how good he is over that distance on turf. We wouldn’t be learning anything new.
However, it’ll be an intriguing and fascinating moment when the gates open for the Classic and I, for one, am glad they’re going for that. Let’s find out a bit more than we already know about old George!
I totally agree cormack, we have the miler in a long while and I reckon that he should be given the chance to beat the yanks at what they ultimately do best, europe has a star this year. <br>George however is back into the domain which he was in before the guineas where everyone had a reason why he wasnt going to win until he destoyed them, he does look like a sprinter miler but it didnt look like he was fading at the end of a fast QE2, this will probably have a slower all round pace and I reckon that will carry him into the 9f pole, what he does from there is up to him. <br>As for the fanfare etc and all the other excuses, i dont think that will be a problem, i once read that o’brien has music playing constantly in his stables to get his horses used to the noise of a big race day, and i wouldnt be surprised if he rocks it up a bit before going to america.
With most horses facing a similar challenge I wouldnt be a fan but George Washington is not most horses as we all know, agree with SHL he loses nothing in defeat, I think he has well and truly earned his place as europes challenger in the big one.
Good luck to him, I say!
Mergewash
its been confirmed George W Aussie Rules HR all to retire at the end of the season im gutted that GW is being sent to stud so soon but he has been a great race horse to watchWatch out, TDK. I can see provocative posts like that getting at least one response on here.
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