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I would add as a side note its pretty unfair to Hawk Wing the way some are speaking of him on here. Yes the horse had his flaws, but it was not his fault many thought him to be pegasus. Not many horses win Group 1s at 2,3 and 4, and competitive at distances from 7 furlongs to a mile and four. The horse was only twice out of the first two in a 12 race career (one of them being on dirt and the other when he was retired injured). Could do with a few more horses like him, I certainly wouldnt mind owning one!!!
Also it probably is unfair using ROG and GC as guides to toughness and resilence. If memory serves me correctly didnt GC set a record when winning all those races in a row and then ROG broke that? If George Washington fails on toughness due to being compared to them, plenty of others have done so too.
Yes, I completely agree about ROG and GC being benchmarks of toughness.  George was compared to them somewhere else, and my point was that it is not just speed that makes a proper champion racehorse.  I don’t think every champion has to win 7 Gr.1 races in a row either – but I think they have to show a little, just a little, more than George has done so far.
And being a Hawk Wing isn’t a bad thing, as you say, he had alot of admirable qualities, including one of the most awesome performances of the decade.  But he was beaten more times than he won, and if we’re taking true champions then, despite his brilliance, he doesn’t make the grade.
I dont know many people who have called Hawk Wing a true champion. But again at their peaks I would favour him over GC and ROG. Thought I "get" what your saying.
Willoughy produced my favourite ever racing quote in reference to Hawk Wing. ‘They said he was the second coming, – but he keeps coming second.’ :biggrin:
Sal Posted on 8:20 pm on Oct. 11, 2006 <br>Isn’t a sound horse one that does not pick up injuries easily? George was not hit by a car or shot with a laser gun – he pulled a muscle badly just in the course of a race.
Maybe I am being harsh, that George has not had a chance to prove he can stand up to a sustained racing programme. But either way, he has not proven it.
You say he would beat GC or ROG in a race ‘on his day’. If either of them ran against George for 8 races in a row, I know at the moment I wouldn’t be backing George to even turn up for all of them.
Despite all this, I do think GW is a fantastic horse, and that he is a certainty to romp it if he runs anywhere near form in the Mile. I’m just not convinced that he is the sort of horse that can string two top-notch performances together in the way that true champions can. I hope he can prove me wrong.
Hmmm….
Sal Posted on 9:24 am on Oct. 12, 2006 <br>Roly, Hawk Wing was probably sent to the Classic as, unlike ROG, he had both a dirt pedigree and proven form over 10f. George has neither.
I hear what you’re staying about George’s great record as a two year old – but winning those races is not quite that same as winning international races against all-aged competition. In addition, it is no better than what ROG achieved.
As for Sir Percy, absolutely. He may be an above average Derby winner, but he is nothing like a true champion yet either. Although he has shown great consistency in his races he hasn’t proved to be resilient, and he has not yet even raced against older horses. I’m surprised you’re even considering that.
I think that it is very easy to lose perspective when a very good horse comes along, and to start calling them the greatest miler on the planet, when they still have something to prove. That’s not to say we shouldn’t appreciate them – George has given some terrific performances and has been one of the highlights of the flat season for me. But I think he needs another win before we can honestly say he is one of the greats, not just another Hawk Wing.
Right, so sir percy was an above average derby winner and george has not proven himself to be a real champion and a tough horse.
I have already spoke enough about sir percys derby which i trhink was below average. However, George washington was green when third on his 5f debut last year, he then came out and (if i remember correctly wo na listed race on his next start), won the railway stakes, destroyed everything in the Phoenix Stakes (i remember that day that in the previous sprint race over course and distance on the same day half an hour away that Balmont ‘a group1 class sprinter’ was reported to be in the form of his life, ran a cracking race but finished second to osterhase, the time of both horses was beaten by georges 8 lengths destruction), then he went to the national stakes over 7f (i bet on Heatseeker that day as he was one i had been one i was following at the time, o’brien put out the anglesy winner Amigoni as a pacemaker and he set a blistering early pace) and george destroyed them making up about 8 lengths in the blink of an eye, then he was removed at the last minute from the dewhurst due to concerns about the ground, then he came back this season and destroyed what i think was a good guineas field, in a good time, establishing that he most certainly got a mile after people had said he wouldnt. Next o’brien put him out on Heavy ground for an attempt at the guineas double, he picked up an injury and was only beaten by another very good miler, who went on to take the st james palace, on his return in the celebration mile, everything went wrong, he looked totally unprepared for it and kinane gave him a shocking ride, saving the whip till the race was out of reach. Then he came out at ascot and humped the best that europe could muster with ease.
I suppose your right about him not being a proven champion. Any horse could do that. Its surpising that no-one else has…:biggrin:
"Any horse could do that. Its surpising that no-one else has" ÂÂÂ
Yes it would be very difficult to replicate that exact series of events….
However that same kind of breathless, unobjective prose could be used to describe many horses’ performances – many of whom had actually achieved more than George, by not getting beaten, by winning more than one race out of his age-range, by breaking records.
I’m sure some fans could write a similar piece on Shamardal – winning a string of Group ones on extremes of going, beating future champions in Hurricane Run and Oratorio, his 8 length (should have been 12) destruction of his maiden field, his tragic defeat on the wrong surface, Champion 2yr old, Champion 3yo miler… sound familiar?  And that’s just a horse from the last couple of years. ÂÂÂ
Try looking into the history of Brigadier Gerard and then tell me that George Washington has nothing left to prove.
(Edited by Sal at 2:37 pm on Oct. 12, 2006)
Sal Posted on 2:35 pm on Oct. 12, 2006 <br>"Any horse could do that. Its surpising that no-one else has"
Yes it would be very difficult to replicate that exact series of events….
However that same kind of breathless, unobjective prose could be used to describe many horses’ performances – many of whom had actually achieved more than George, by not getting beaten, by winning more than one race out of his age-range, by breaking records.
I’m sure some fans could write a similar piece on Shamardal – winning a string of Group ones on extremes of going, beating future champions in Hurricane Run and Oratorio, his 8 length (should have been 12) destruction of his maiden field, his tragic defeat on the wrong surface, Champion 2yr old, Champion 3yo miler… sound familiar? And that’s just a horse from the last couple of years.
Try looking into the history of Brigadier Gerard and then tell me that George Washington has nothing left to prove. <br>
I would say that about shamardal, he was an absolute champ and was as tough as nails. Undisputable Champion 2yo and only hurricane runs arc performance knocked him off the champ spot last year, if i remember correctly.
Im sure if George Washington was to face Brigadier Gerard tomorrow he’d win, because that was along time ago and george is the undisputable miling champion of here and now. Why must people try to say that GW is not champion because he has not done what another horse did in a totally different era. George has shown what he can do on numerous occasions, and it has beeen impressive. But because he finished second and was injured in a group1 on ground that doesnt suit most horses and was clearly unpreppared for his reappearance, hes not tough, not a champion, tripe! Can you name me a horse in training that can beat him at a mile? no? Thats why he is a champion. The fact that he has only ever been beaten three times (once on his debut,twice either side of an injury) and has destroyed everything else thats faced him is why i’ll say he is a tough horse.
I would like to see George Washington stay in training next year and annihilate more horses because it is so impressive to watch, but that is not going to happen. But he has nothing to prove, there is nothing he can prove at a mile at the moment until a horse comes along that is better than him and that will probably be some time away.
Did you know (factoid alert!!) that of all the 2yos George beat last year, not one has gone on to win a Group or Grade One race?  That is unique among the last 4 Champion European 2yos – Shamardal and Rocky beat 3 each (inc. multiple winners), Bago beat 2. ÂÂÂ
You can be a ‘champion’ by beating all your peers, but it does not secure you a place in history.  And I think when (or if) he does win the Breeders’ Cup that yes, he will have proven himself to be extremely special – not just the champion 3yo of 2006, which is all he is now.
There is a champion 3yo every year, and you’re absolutely right, George is one of those – but it is the Champions League I am talking about.  Measuring horses from different eras against each other is, agreed, a futile exercise.  But there has to be some sort of benchmark of what makes a true and proper champion – one that stands out above the others.  It is not necessarily who would beat who, but those who epitomise the qualities essential in the thoroughbred racehorse – speed, stamina, versatility, courage, toughness.
It’s a select club who can fill all these criteria – and not a shame on George that he has not yet done that.  But it means he still has something left to prove, and to go out on a flop in the Classic would mean he would never be classified as truly great. ÂÂÂ
Im sure if George Washington was to face Brigadier Gerard tomorrow he’d win, because that was along time ago and george is the undisputable miling champion of here and now.
<br>It wouldn’t be an edifying spectacle. Talk about flogging a dead horse! :biggrin:
There is a champion 3yo every year, and you’re absolutely right, George is one of those – but it is the Champions League I am talking about
Well thats ok then cos the Champions "league" is hardly stuffed full of genuine Champions and has included teams such as liverpool who finished 30 points off the Champions spot (three furlongs say?) and won the bloody thing without winning any of their last four games
I would ratehr GW was a champion than "champions league"… :)
Quote: from Sal on 4:23 pm on Oct. 12, 2006[br]Did you know (factoid alert!!) that of all the 2yos George beat last year, not one has gone on to win a Group or Grade One race?  That is unique among the last 4 Champion European 2yos – Shamardal and Rocky beat 3 each (inc. multiple winners), Bago beat 2.  <br> <br>
What difference does that make? That all happened over a year ago. Look what happened 3 weeks ago at Ascot. Is that void because all the horses GW beat haven’t won any Group 1s? Dubawi only beat 1 subsequent Grade 1 winner, and that came on the dirt.
So if Bago beat 2 subsequent Group/Grade 1 winners, does that make him an exceptional Arc winner?
‘Sounding like a bitter Chelsea fan…. :biggrin:’
LMAO!!!
Quote: from jackane24 on 12:01 pm on Oct. 13, 2006[br][Is that void because all the horses GW beat haven’t won any Group 1s?
Araafa, Court Masterpiece, Proclamation and Librettist are all G1 winners, three of them this season and 2 of them on their previous outing prior to the QEII.
I might be worried by what the rest of the field in a race like the Phoenix had done since if it wasn’t for the fact that George was back in his box having a cup of tea by the time they trailed in.
Quote: from davidjohnson on 12:09 pm on Oct. 13, 2006[br]
Quote: from jackane24 on 12:01 pm on Oct. 13, 2006[br][Is that void because all the horses GW beat haven’t won any Group 1s?
Araafa, Court Masterpiece, Proclamation and Librettist are all G1 winners, three of them this season and 2 of them on their previous outing prior to the QEII. <br>
I meant horses GW beat as a 2yo
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