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there was a french horse i believe sent to stud and returned to the track when failing to deliver but i cannot recall it’s name – i shall search …
that said, anything living that was previously mentally fragile – if that’s the words – is retired, pampered silly and brought a constant stream of lady horses to have fun with but is then suddenly put back in hard training with the little guys sitting on him thrashing his backside off should not be trusted first time back, imo
he may be glad to escape the nagging – if horses nag – and is clearly superior to the field i think and the race will be very interesting but i shall be in the observers team, not the punters team
liquidity or not someone is prepared to lay him at the price …
Simon,
Was keltos the horse you were thinking of? He won the Lockinge in 2002 and was not seen again until 04. He certainly did not win another G1 but was placed in several G2 and G3’s on his return.
Quote: from clivex on 10:31 am on June 14, 2007[br]Would have been a lot happier if he had had a run already. Not for fitness purposes as much as for simply attempting to get his head straight (er). has to be a concern the noise and occasion wil get to him. The QE11 at ascot last year was a pretty sedate meeting compared with next week
Cant wait to see him though.
Still, if a nice handsome looking colt takes a decent lead , George will be off like a scalded cat ;)  <br>
zzzzzzzz
Without wishing to sound like someone who depends on soundbites from trainers, i would very much like to hear Aidan O’Brien’s thoughts on George, how his training, attitude and demeanour has been.
Or perhaps TRF’s own Aidan could share his thoughts?! :)
Quote: from Maurice on 10:04 pm on June 13, 2007[br]How many horses have returned from stud able to run to 100% of their previous ability?
How many have tried?
I think 6-4 is about right based on the "unknowns".
Fortunately, in the 15 mins before the race many of the questions about his fitness ane temperament will be answered and it’ll be easier to take a position and some value should appear on one side of the betting equation.
Assuming, of course, that the BBC bother to show the horses in the paddock rather than:
"The horses have entered the paddock for this important group 1 race … now here’s Rishi with a homosexual who doesn’t know – or care – about racing"
Steve
That last Group 1 winner to return after a spell at stud I can think of is Keltos. I think he won first time up, albeit in a very weak race and as you say TDK, Gentlemans Deal wasn’t in any way affected.
Keltos was TF rated 132 in 2002 ( cf George Washington 133 in 2006) and although he won first time out after stud duties it was in a minor conditions race getting 9 lbs from a horse rated 104. Thereafter he was 2nd in 2 listed races before being placed in a G" and G3 and earning a TF rating for the year of 118 ie stud duties or age led to a deterioration of 14lbs.
All horses are different and GW has only been off for 9 months whereas Keltos was returned to training after 14 months.
Incidently Gentlemens Deal had a TF turf rating of 95 and did not run to anywhere near this in the Lincoln<br>and was not in the same class as Keltos or GW.
Obviously Aidan O’Brien feels GW is fit and ready but I think a fealing of queasiness after such a rushed preparation is certainly in order although as I previously posted it may well prove in retrospect " a licence to print money"
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Well, I’ll try not to be too dogmatic, but I just don’t think there were any world class milers around in Britain last year.<br>Think you’re right about Ramonti preferring further, but that never puts me off a horse and doesn’t necessarily mean he lacks speed.<br> Still… Who’s the forumite who always ends "I could be wrong. It has been known"? :)
That’s if you believe Keltos was ever a 132 animal. His next best performance figure was 120 on his outing before the Lockinge and he was capable of running to 116 in the Challenge Stakes after he’d been to stud.
With respect to those who mentioned Gentleman’s Deal in this context, he doesn’t come into the equation because he’s not a top class horse.
I don’t have a problem with lesser horses coming back from stud or a long break. I’m careful about punting them but so long as the threshold (on my figures) for a G1 horse is 126, I would never back a 4yo or older horse to hit that figure first time up unless it was capable of substantially more to begin with.
It seems to me that most older G1 horses take in relatively easy races on their comeback and can win without having too hard a race.
I’ll certainly be looking to oppose George next week and if I can’t find a good ‘un with which to do so I won’t be betting anything in the race.
Was there a horse about 30 years ago called Lord David who returned to training after ‘flopping’ at stud?
If I had backed George (which I have not and will not) I would be worried about three things:-
1. Whether he has retained his ability and concentration<br>2. Team tactics by Godolphin<br>3. George’s comeback race at Goodwood last August where he was looked after and whether this is a similar scenario.
At 6/4 he is appalling value IMO<br>
Just what price would you have him at? You’ll be doing well to get 6/4 on the day.
I would not worry about his fitness levels. The horse was at stud covering mares, not standing in a box all day. A level of fitness is required even for stallion work so while some way off from being fit enough to race he certainly was not "unfit". His run at Goodwood was coming back from injury and it was being used as a prep race for the QEII.
He is a naturally enthusiastic colt, a brilliant worker so fitness would never be the worry just his mental state of mind. Everything I have heard, in partcular in the last week has been nothing but confidence.
(Edited by Aidan at 6:15 pm on June 14, 2007)
I’d put myself in the sceptical camp as well. That 6/4 is already long gone but even at those odds I’d have happily passed. Agree with Zorro’s assessment of George’s form in the QEII last year. That’s without all the other baggage the horse brings into play. Even taking into account what Aidan is saying it’s my experience that this is one to definitely swerve at such cramped odds. If he hacks up I’ll tip my virtual cap.
Ramonti is the one for me. While the Lockinge might not have been up to much, Red Evie is not that bad. She beat Peeress who in turn was a neck behind Librettist (yeah I know he was beaten by George comprehensively) and Manduro last year. A lot better is that 3rd place behind The Duke and Armada at Sha Tin where Armada is the horse to note and not Bullish Luck. That form is definitely good enough to win here. If a fit and well Armada had shown up for this race I’d have had a real serious bet on that animal. Not concerned about the distance for Ramonti at all. Frankie is on the crest of a wave right now with a real chance on a track he has owned over the years. At 5/1 looks a sporting bet.<br>
For those looking at a second example of Group 1 horses going back into training after standing at stud should look no further than Champion 3yo Sprinter Tamarisk.
Arguably not at his best anyway after the debacle in the US but he was put back into training and proved absolutely useless, much as it pains me to say it given he was one of my favourite horses :(
Trackside, it is just a theory and welcome evidence either in support of it or against it but it is based on my ratings of horses in certain races over many years.
I have noticed that ‘ordinary’ horses can come back from a long break (not enough examples of those coming back from stud to be meaningful but Lord whatever and Tamarisk are two who failed) and even resume upward curves from before.
A lot of top class (G1, 126+) horses can get back to thier very best but not many seem to manage it first time up. Hawk Wing was one of the best I ever saw. It would have been a shock result if he wasn’t able to win that Lockinge and my time rating for the race was only 124. I don’t see that GW is in the same class as HW.
However, I also think you need to weigh up the opposition, which I haven’t done so far. I may decide George doesn’t have much to beat and won’t need to be at his best to win but it still wouldn’t persuade me to back him.
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