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I’m glad Frankel has now usurped Dancing Brave at the top of the ratings. Most deserving. I’m with dear old Ginge on this: Dancing Brave was overrated, if ever so slightly. His legacy rests solely on one brilliant performance in Paris.
European wise, Sea Bird ( still the best ever mile and a half performer, bar none imo ), Ribot, Mill Reef, Nijinsky, Brigadier Gerard and Sea The Stars ( YES ! him too ) I also consider to be superior to Dancing Brave.
Yes, ratings are subjective – to an extent – but an objective view must also be taken into consideration, otherwise there would be mayhem.
I also think Lochsong (as well as Dayjur) would have beaten Black Caviar – and if you listen to some of the more knowledgeable old timers, then Abernant would have thrashed all of them without turning a hair.
[edited – cormack] Himself it is pretty much a given that our sprinters are better,Lochsong and Abernant cant match the mare on their performances.You probably want to quote either ‘Vain’ or ‘Manikato’ the 2 Aussie horses that some believe may have pushed the mare.
I heard about this review a while back and thought at the time the outcome will be exactly what it has turned out to be. The practice of revising the ratings for other horses down to ensure Frankel becomes the top rated horse since these ratings were first introduced is deplorable.
Quite how 26 years after he raced today’s handicappers can downgrade Dancing Brave by 3lbs is a mystery to me.
Dayjur doesn’t measure up to Black Caviar, think Lightning Stks or Newmarket 58kg’s giving up to 7kg’s away running 1 min 7.3 and bolting in,Dayjur couldn’t do that.
Jollyp,
Your reasoning for thinking Dayjur couldn’t do it is?Value Is EverythingI heard about this review a while back and thought at the time the outcome will be exactly what it has turned out to be. The practice of revising the ratings for other horses down to ensure Frankel becomes the top rated horse since these ratings were first introduced is deplorable.
Quite how 26 years after he raced today’s handicappers can downgrade Dancing Brave by 3lbs is a mystery to me.
Then read my first post on this thread Brigadier, it explains in ratings terms why Dancing Brave’s rating should be reduced. As far as I can see, the logic makes perfect sense. Fair enough if you disagree with it, but please explain why you disagree.
Value Is EverythingDayjur doesn’t measure up to Black Caviar, think Lightning Stks or Newmarket 58kg’s giving up to 7kg’s away running 1 min 7.3 and bolting in,Dayjur couldn’t do that.
Jollyp,
Your reasoning for thinking Dayjur couldn’t do it is?Well apart from getting beaten at 7f,having a tendency to shy at shadows in at least a couple of runs,he wasn’t good enough.The mare started over 7f too remember and cantered in,she gets the job done.My point being he was fallible,where to this point with torn muscles and bad suspensory ligaments,travel she just wins!
think Himself it is pretty much a given that our sprinters are better,
Jollyp,
Just because "we" haven’t had a good sprinter for some time, doesn’t mean we’ve never had good sprinters. Just as Australia once had a good cricket team.
Value Is Everythingthink Himself it is pretty much a given that our sprinters are better,
Jollyp,
Just because "we" haven’t had a good sprinter for some time, doesn’t mean we’ve never had good sprinters. Just as Australia once had a good cricket team.I have never said you didn’t have some good sprinters.Though if it wasn’t for Choisir going over there,we would be putting up with smug condescending comments on how our sprinters wouldn’t measure up over there,and you know that is true!As for the cricket GT you are only one rating point in front of Australia 118 to 117 in test cricket.Certainly not our best team but everyone has to rebuild.If i was you after MBE’s were handed out to the England team i don’t think i would be saying too much.Paul Collingwood plays one test in the 2005 ashes and he scores an MBE
Dayjur doesn’t measure up to Black Caviar, think Lightning Stks or Newmarket 58kg’s giving up to 7kg’s away running 1 min 7.3 and bolting in,Dayjur couldn’t do that.
Jollyp,
Your reasoning for thinking Dayjur couldn’t do it is?Well apart from getting beaten at 7f,having a tendency to shy at shadows in at least a couple of runs,he wasn’t good enough.The mare started over 7f too remember and cantered in,she gets the job done.My point being he was fallible,where to this point with torn muscles and bad suspensory ligaments,travel she just wins!
So Australian horses are allowed excuses for scrambling home in a substandard Group 1. But a British horse running on a different surface who jumps a shadow – is not enough of an excuse.
That’s no answer Jollyp.
Value Is EverythingDayjur found a way of getting beaten, Black Caviar found a way to win!That is the difference! She doesn’t need excuses 22 from 22.
It’s only opinion and it’s only numbers…but nevertheless rather than change the figures awarded to the stellar horses of yesteryear, which due to their vintage have become carved into the psyche of a legion of turfistes old and young, wouldn’t it have been better to leave them the same and adjust Frankel’s putative ‘modern’ 140 to an ‘old’ 143, or whatever it might be
It’s of no importance at all but it does grate a bit to see the memory of old friends sullied in this unecessary figurative way 25-35 years after the event, even if some believe the sullying was needed
However, I have no reason to question Frankel’s position atop them all: it’s good to see a new ‘un topple the old ‘uns, and it’s been a long time coming
By the way what do you make of this statement from the RP?
In October it was revealed the 141 allotted to Dancing Brave for his brilliant Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe success in 1986 was in part awarded as a present for retiring handicapper David Swannell
Bizarre
Does this mean that had Mr Swannell not been retiring Dancing Brave would have been rated x pounds lower? Though if it wasn’t for Choisir going over there,we would be putting up with smug condescending comments on how our sprinters wouldn’t measure up over there,and you know that is true!
You think so Jollyp…Before Choisir came over in 2003 who do you think
Timeform Racehorses Of 2002
rated as the best 3 year old sprinters in the World? It suits Australians (and in particular the Aussie anti-British Press) to make out we "Brits" constantly put Australians down.
From what I can see… Choisir was rated the second best 3 year old sprinter in the World in 2002. The only one just a pound ahead being Bel Esprit… another Australian.
Does that sound like "smug condescending comments on how
Australian
sprinters would not measure up over
here
"? Don’t believe what you read Jollyp.
Value Is EverythingMate with press like you have there(just like the MBE winning cricketers)i wouldn’t be bringing that one up
As Shane Warne said to the one ashes match MBE winning Paul Collingwood ‘MBE must stand for "must be embarrassed". ,and Warnie should know about being embarrassed Dayjur found a way of getting beaten, Black Caviar found a way to win!That is the difference! She doesn’t need excuses 22 from 22.
So yet again Jollyp, your reasoning is purely based on the number of races won, not
form
.
Value Is EverythingDayjur found a way of getting beaten, Black Caviar found a way to win!That is the difference! She doesn’t need excuses 22 from 22.
So yet again Jollyp, your reasoning is purely based on the number of races won, not
form
.
Dear oh dear GT, FFS
No she beat better horses, and she is a superior horse to Dayjur.Jollyp,
I wouldn’t have a clue if Black Caviar is better than Dayjur, Lochsong, Abernant or Pegasus and I don’t care any which way, but out of interest has Black Caviar produced any or many time/speed ratings good enough to bolster her lofty form ratings?
I know nothing about Australian racing but given that it is punted by ‘serious’ punters both at home and around the world your racing media presumably employs a number of adept speedfigure/timefigure analysts
It’s only opinion and it’s only numbers…but nevertheless rather than change the figures awarded to the stellar horses of yesteryear, which due to their vintage have become carved into the psyche of a legion of turfistes old and young, wouldn’t it have been better to leave them the same and adjust Frankel’s putative ‘modern’ 140 to an ‘old’ 143, or whatever it might be
It’s of no importance at all but it does grate a bit to see the memory of old friends sullied in this unecessary figurative way 25-35 years after the event, even if some believe the sullying was needed
If Frankel were upped 3 lbs instead Drone, wouldn’t it mean upping all the good horses in future too? Surely it is best to get the ratings right now, once and for all?
I don’t see it as "sullied" at all, Dancing Brave was one of the best racehorses ever seen. His Arc in my opinion THE best race ever seen. It’s just about getting the figures (as far as they can see) right.
Value Is Everything
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