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Ratpack, Aragnorn – brutralised is probably too strong for Crocodiles Rock at this stage – but I just find it very disappointing to see talented horses go the wrong way in the manner that Black Jack Ketchum, say, has.
I hope I’m wrong about CR and he can regain the winning thread next time.
If you had the remotest idea of the one million things that can go wrong with horses you wouldn’t be so harsh on Jonjo or any other trainer for that fact.
How about the time Noland was off the course who was to blame for that.PN or was it just one of those thins that can happen to anyone.
You have this fixations about BJK and how Jonjo ruined him. Do you know where he is right now? Dow you know what they found when they had him examined him? You haven’t got the remotest idea have you? You ever think he might just be the type of horse who physically can’t stand up to training….better known as a big soft bugger………..you just assume it is the trainers fault without thinking and accuse a good man of inhuman practices which make who the idiot?And never mind the BUTS that does not excuse ignorance the man never brutalised a horse in his life and I’m damn sure it’s too strong a word to be using.
Other than that until the vet and Phisio have seen ED a few times who said he won’t run in the Gold Cup. No one knows the answer to that one yet. Much depends on the severity of the injury which is very hard to tell. He could be off for 3 weeks or 6 months and until Jonjo has the tests completed and passes it on to the press we simply don’t know. Won’t have done his chances any good but that’s racing.
I thought you had left the forum, Fist Of Fury.
Once more just for you…
I haven’t blamed Jonjo for the injury to ED.
I just think he is a very poor trainer of racehorses.
Thank you.
BTW – for avoidance of doubt, I was using "brutalised" in a figurative sense – I am not for a moment suggesting Jonjo is mistreating his horses.
FOF
Surely the point is that on balance it would at least appear to most, that fewer horses progress quite how most observers would hope they would with JJ, than with Nichols, Hobbs and King (and others)
Luck will play a part of course, but over the course of quite a few seasons an overall picture is formed
Its a bit like Tony McCoys "how many winners have your ridden?" comment. The idea that opinions can only be restricted to insiders is ludicrous
Is this one bad spell too many for JJ? Whatever the reasons, new and existing owners are surely going to be having some reservations about sending expensive animals to him in the future?
Clivex, we all have opinions on horse racing, and we all express our views, which of course I welcome. However, I believe there is a way one should express their opinions, by clear and concise arguments to back up ones opinions. In this instance TDK is dismissive of a trainer who is not top drawer but is not a disastrous trainer by any means, this is backed up by winning statistics and prize money.
So, if TDK and your good self want to slate O’Neill at every opportunity you can, please do so, but try and back up your argument. You are both very arrogant in the way you bandy about your opinions about O’Neill, as if you have done that and worn the T-shirt.
JohnJ.
JJ
I accept there isn’t much on this thread to back up the arguments, but there have been several threads about Jonjo in which plenty of disappointing horses from the yard have been discussed.
To rake up all those arguments again on each thread would just be tedious. Maybe let’s just agree to disagree on the matter.
FOF
Surely the point is that on balance it would at least appear to most, that fewer horses progress quite how most observers would hope they would with JJ, than with Nichols, Hobbs and King (and others)
Luck will play a part of course, but over the course of quite a few seasons an overall picture is formed
So Detroit City, Fair Along, Crystal D’Ainay, My Way de Solzen, Silver Birch, Azertyuiop were handled correctly? Every trainer has blots on their copy book, any views on Nicholls decision to run Twist Magic at Ascot on bottomless ground last Saturday?
We shall TDK, though as stated above every trainer is guilty of handling errors with horses, something you and Clive seem to think O’Neill is guilty of.
JohnJ
I thought you had left the forum, Fist Of Fury.
Once more just for you…
I haven’t blamed Jonjo for the injury to ED.
I just think he is a very poor trainer of racehorses.
Thank you.
And your not alone in your opinion. My bookie thinks he’s a twat and we fight like cat and dog over it.
Your in the public eye you get slagged that’s the name of the game. Some deserve it some don’t. I would love to have a list of every horse that went through the great Martin Pipes hands during his career and how many of them broke down and never saw a race course again. Damn site more than what Jonjo has gone through that’s for sure.
now I am going out so be careful I am likely to be pissed when I post next
Ratpack, Aragnorn – brutralised is probably too strong for Crocodiles Rock at this stage – but I just find it very disappointing to see talented horses go the wrong way in the manner that Black Jack Ketchum, say, has.
I hope I’m wrong about CR and he can regain the winning thread next time.
TDK, i use these as an example of horses showing early promise and maybe not fulfilling it for whatever reason
2005 Arkle – Contraband, Ashley Brook, River City
2004 Triumph – Made in Japan, Cheif Yoeman, Top Stratergy
Have they been brutalized (or whatever word you want to use) by their trainers or would you concede these horses have not turned out as we probably expected
Ashley Brook has been desperately disappointing and something obviously went drastically wrong with Contraband. I’m not sure whether the others really ever had the scope to go onto much better things to be honest.
BTW – for avoidance of doubt, I was using "brutalised" in a figurative sense – I am not for a moment suggesting Jonjo is mistreating his horses.
Well done for that.. Brutalising would never suggest anything of the sort..
I don’t disagree with your point about Jonjo – He is having a mare (just to clarify – not bestiality) – But to make accusatory and inflammatory comments like that ain’t really necessary. He seems like a genuine bloke to me who doesn’t warrant it.
Ashley Brook has been desperately disappointing and something obviously went drastically wrong with Contraband. I’m not sure whether the others really ever had the scope to go onto much better things to be honest.
We can argue the merits of each horse TDK, but i think you understand what i’m trying to get across and thats all i wanted to do
I’ll leave this thread now and let the Jonjo can, can’t train debate carry on
All the best mate, but watch those low blows and rabbit punches
FOF
Surely the point is that on balance it would at least appear to most, that fewer horses progress quite how most observers would hope they would with JJ, than with Nichols, Hobbs and King (and others)
Luck will play a part of course, but over the course of quite a few seasons an overall picture is formed
It’s a hard question to answer unless you know every horse that has gone through a yard. I have no idea how many horses PN goes through to get from A to B. In his case I would say he is most likely a considerate trainer with huge financial backing and looks after his horses very well.
But hidden in the dark hallways are trainers who go through horses like a knife through butter and become champion trainers. Young hurdlers run on rock hard ground win 3 races and are never seen again. Some run once and then disappear. I can assure Jonjo has very few like that.
You would also need to know how much money has been spent by each trainer to start comparing them. If you get 2 million in and another trainer gets 200K in you simply can’t compare.
The name that keeps popping up is Rhinestone Cowboy I can tell you this much if the great Vincent O’brien had trained him and AP had took the ride he still wouldn’t have won a Champion Hurdle and If you can find a trainer who could make BJK win any race he has run in this season then you better make sure he has a big white pointed hat on his head.
"The name that keeps popping up is Rhinestone Cowboy I can tell you this much if the great Vincent O’brien had trained him and AP had took the ride he still wouldn’t have won a Champion Hurdle and If you can find a trainer who could make BJK win any race he has run in this season then you better make sure he has a big white pointed hat on his head."
Fists, I’m not sure how you can be sure that VO and AP wouldn’t have worked the oracle.
……………..and is the last part of your post referring to the Ku Klux Klan???
Colin
At the time well before the race Jonjo knocked the press for saying he was a good thing. They were the ones talking about him like he only needed to turn up. In Jonjo’s eyes he had no more than a good chance and he having won the race on Sea Pigeon and Dawn Run. you would hope, if anyone knew what it takes to win the race he would. When you have sat on as many good horses as Jonjo you don’t have to ride them on a racecourse to know how good they are.
The horse ran a good race and was soundly beaten by what many regard as being one of the worst Champion Hurdlers of all time. Jonjo did wonders with that horse and won enough good races with him to know he was doing the right thing with him….can’t see what anyone else could have done…and that includes VO..come Champion Hurdle day he was beaten soundly by a better horse and had he ran the next year against Hardy Eustace who trounced the 2003 winner well I will leave that to your imagination…..basically the horse was good but at the end of the day pretty ordinary by CH class and did very well to finish 2nd and that’s as good as he was…………….Personally I thought RC was a real soft bugger and just wouldn’t be up to it. He ran better than I thought he would but I refused to bet a thing in the race as it stank as a race IMO. I couldn’t have picked the winner if you told me before the race a grey was going to win……..not the KKK was thinking about Gandalf in LOTR.
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