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Biggest load of nonsence – being a big horse does not mean you cannot handle Epsom. Sariska, Yeats, Scorpion, Sea The Stars to name but a few were hardly small/nimble types yet all won at Epsom.
"Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you need a small, nimble, diminutive horse at a course like Epsom where it’s rather difficult for a big horse to negotiate those contours and tight turn at Tattenham Corner? Unoriginal I know, but I can’t see SNA not winning this despite a lacklustre Guineas performance. Should be prime come June."
Spot on and i would agree with you as i said a few pages back and couldn’t fathom how Jan Vermeer would handle Epsom being such a big robust Horse. But i saw class i saw real class on Sunday. I was very doubtful that would have the speed over 1m2f to do what he did but he did it so easy and classy that i be surprised if he didn’t handle the Epsom Downs. He is pure class and when Johnny switched him is was a Tank with Dancing Feet. He is geting strong on Betfair and John Magnier won’t let a opportunity like this pass him by because Cape Blanco(may not stay but i think he will) Midas Touch(may not be good enough) and St Nich( could bomb out like the Guineas). Jan Vermeer is the Top card in the Deck to cover all bases.
I think Cape Blanco will go to France and win the 1m2f race? perfect for Stud. Need a real good 1m2f that can step up to 1m4f. Only other Galileo is Rip Van Winkle who is best at a mile by the looks of things. So they got both Sons of Galileo bases covered. I would expect Cape Blanco to step up to say the King George or a 1m4f race when needed for the Stud Book.
So i think we may have JV/SNA/MT all race in the Epsom Derby. The Work on Monday Morning before the Derby will reveal all on Betfair. All you sharp Shooters keep your cup of coffee and watch the price movements very carefully regarding JV
How many of them won a Derby?
1
Please don’t talk about the C Cup. Nothing other than a Token Group 1 with small fields every year. 8 last year
7 the Scorpion won it and 7 when yeats won it. And then their are horses that have pacemakers and complete rags at 66/1.We are talking about the Derby with a 16 Runner field and when Horses get caught on heels and need to recover their balance turning the famous corner to make a stake for glory. Generally big Horse’s will struggle. If they are the real deal( as Sea The Stars) their should be no problem as you said and won’t be an excuse. It should be pointed out that Small and Big Horses struggle as equally well over Epsom’s Course (Frozen Fire/Gan Amhras just 2 the past few years who were small). STS was just a exceptional talent who actually pulled all the way up to be behind the pacemaker. I wonder if Jan Vermeer gets stuck on the rail 8l back turning the famous corner could he get out and win?. We will have to wait and see
Jan Vermeer was 7.8 last night now into 6.6. The Layers seem to be running scared a wee bit
How AOB could not run Cape Blanco is absolutely absurd. He ran in the best Derby trial, and destroyed the field, easily, beating 3 horses who are expected to run in the race (Chabal, Co-ordinated Cut and Workforce).
If he doesn’t run in The Derby, I will personally lose a lot of respect for him.
Cape Blanco was lame after the Dante and is far from certain to stay 1m4f. Epsom is about the worst course you could take a horse prone to lameness. Chantilly is flat and their Derby is over shorter. So I’d say France is the best option for the horse. Not absurd at all.
Holes can be picked in the form too. Chabal ran no sort of race and Workforce did not show what he could do (slipping bitt). Was beating Coordinated Cut by that far Derby winning form?
Keep an eye on Bin Surroor’s form, if he starts firing them in Chabal could be value (big IF). With lameness and stamina worries about Cape Blanco, Workforce could reverse the placings if taking his chance.Coolmore denied all reports of Cape Blanco being lame. And am I right in thinking no horse who has lost in the Dante has gone on to win the Derby?
Coolmore said it was not serious. They did not (I believe) deny the lameness.
If Cape Blanco was the one who’s bitt came through his mouth and finished second, would you say the Dante stat was against him? Of course winners of the Dante have a better record than placed, you’d expect that. But when there’s a valid excuse for a beaten animal (Workforce), the stat goes out the window. Not saying Workforce would definitely beat Cape Blanco, just his price come the day might make it worth a wager.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
How many of them won a Derby?
1
Please don’t talk about the C Cup. Nothing other than a Token Group 1 with small fields every year. 8 last year
7 the Scorpion won it and 7 when yeats won it. And then their are horses that have pacemakers and complete rags at 66/1.Quality not quantity, suppose last years Juddemonte was a token Group 1.
Yeats was ante-post favourite when he was ruled out of the Derby through injury. Given the horse’s exploits both before and after the Derby in 2004 and taking into account the quality of the Derby field that year (the 5th horse home ran in the Kerrygold Champion Chase at Punchestown this year!) there are very few people who think Yeats wouldn’t have won the Derby in 2004.
How many of them won a Derby?
1
Please don’t talk about the C Cup. Nothing other than a Token Group 1 with small fields every year. 8 last year
7 the Scorpion won it and 7 when yeats won it. And then their are horses that have pacemakers and complete rags at 66/1.We are talking about the Derby with a 16 Runner field and when Horses get caught on heels and need to recover their balance turning the famous corner to make a stake for glory. Generally big Horse’s will struggle. If they are the real deal( as Sea The Stars) their should be no problem as you said and won’t be an excuse. It should be pointed out that Small and Big Horses struggle as equally well over Epsom’s Course (Frozen Fire/Gan Amhras just 2 the past few years who were small). STS was just a exceptional talent who actually pulled all the way up to be behind the pacemaker. I wonder if Jan Vermeer gets stuck on the rail 8l back turning the famous corner could he get out and win?. We will have to wait and see
Both High Chaparral and Hawk Wing could hardly be called nimble, they were quite scopey looking individuals, and both ran as four year olds and of course finished 1st and 2nd in the 02 Derby. Just because a horse is big does not mean it cannot be balanced, your argument is a bit ridiculous to be honest.
JohnJ
" Both High Chaparral and Hawk Wing could hardly be called nimble, they were quite scopey looking individuals, and both ran as four year olds and of course finished 1st and 2nd in the 02 Derby. Just because a horse is big does not mean it cannot be balanced, your argument is a bit ridiculous to be honest. "
Did i say big Horses cannot be balanced?…No.
"wallace-no7
Tue May 04, 2010 9:52 pm
With Regards Jan Vermeer….Quite Interesting he won his maiden on Firm Going yet still was adaptable at Very Soft.
He is a big brute of a horse…i get a few pictures up over the weekend to show you him. Really powerful hind quarters"
" wallace-no7
Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:52 pm
Passion for Gold has no chance at Epsom…the horse is huge huge 2yr old. I can see him being all over the place coming down the famous hill and corner. I for one can’t see him enjoying that track.However Irish Derby on Good ground he could really be hard to beat….much suitable track for a big horse like him. France aswell could be a option….Epsom really cant be his course. He was a monsterous 2yr old. Looked like a jumper"
For soft Ground Horses which Jan Vermeer was until last weekend in regards Formbook as was Passion For Gold. I was pointing out that it would be very difficult to see how the Both of them big Power horses that Hit the Ground Hard and on prob Firm Ground would be able to handle a track such as Epsom in Mid June. The arguments is non-existant now since the Horse acts on Bone Hard Conditions. I was unable to predick that Jan Vermeer would coast carrying a 7lb penalty on Firm Ground and hack up in his trial(Did anyone else? other than David Duggan of ATR) The likely hood for me was that JV would Miss Epsom as would Passion For Gold for more chance of Softer conditions on flat galloping track that would allow them to hit their stride better so to speak especially since the Two Stables had more Clear cut candidates in Chabal and St Nicholas Abbey. Perhaps i should have made it crystal clear that the way the Horse’s race was the main reason i reached my conclusion winning Group 1s on NH Ground
"Quality not quantity, suppose last years Juddemonte was a token Group 1."
Big difference their was that the Cornation/Tatts Gold Cup are 4yr old + races that always end of with pretty average winners especially the Cornation. The International is a 3yr old VS Older Horses. Not sure what the point is your making is it my fault that Sea The Stars the freak horse scared away all Home Challenge away in a rare occurence in a race that Produced Top Class Horses (Giants Causeway/Sts/Authorized) or the Cornation that produces Horses such as the calibre of Scorpion and Ask
" Both High Chaparral and Hawk Wing could hardly be called nimble, they were quite scopey looking individuals, and both ran as four year olds and of course finished 1st and 2nd in the 02 Derby. Just because a horse is big does not mean it cannot be balanced, your argument is a bit ridiculous to be honest. "
Did i say big Horses cannot be balanced?…No.
"wallace-no7You said: –
"Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you need a small, nimble, diminutive horse at a course like Epsom where it’s rather difficult for a big horse to negotiate those contours and tight turn at Tattenham Corner? Unoriginal I know, but I can’t see SNA not winning this despite a lacklustre Guineas performance. Should be prime come June.
Not sure what you mean, if you state that its rather difficult for a big horse to negotiate Epsom.
JohnJ
I never said that!!!. Completely misrepresenting what i said.
In fact Rich 1985 of this Forum said that.
"rich1985
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you need a small, nimble, diminutive horse at a course like Epsom where it’s rather difficult for a big horse to negotiate those contours and tight turn at Tattenham Corner? Unoriginal I know, but I can’t see SNA not winning this despite a lacklustre Guineas performance. Should be prime come June."
Go back to page 13 and scroll near the bottom
Best to keep it simple for now.
St Nicholas Abbey was a mightily impressive Group 1 winner at 2. He got to within 2L of Canford Cliffs at Newmarket over 8f, a remarkable effort, bearing in mind he was also only 3.5L off a very very good winner.
He’s the right price and the likeliest winner.
Ground is the only (slight) concern.
This is what you said about Jan Vermeer on the other thread –
"Jan Vermeer is not a Epsom Horse.
He is a huge chunky animal. Massive hind quarters. Can’t see him handling that turn and that camber. He could well be a superstar but jeez i be astonished if a horse that big could negotiate at Epsom."
Yes i did say that but also i have made points about the Ground.
Didn’t i change my opinion completely after Sunday when i said i was astonished at how well he performed under Race Conditions and that he was a Big Robust Horse with Dancing Feet?. Before that i thought he was a big Slow Plodder after the race in France on Bottomless ground where he won from the front. I do think this Jan Vermeer could well be a Superstar
Best to keep it simple for now.
St Nicholas Abbey was a mightily impressive Group 1 winner at 2. He got to within 2L of Canford Cliffs at Newmarket over 8f, a remarkable effort, bearing in mind he was also only 3.5L off a very very good winner.
Why was this remarkable? Wasn’t he a beaten favourite who never looked like winning? He also finished just in front of Fencing Master. Perhaps Makfi and Canford Cliffs are above average but at this stage it is difficult to put a value on the overall form of either Guineas.
If Jan Vermeer was announced a definite runner he would almost be favourite.
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