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This 4-y-old has just sold at the Newmarket Horses in Training sale for 165,000 guineas.
To someone with minimal understanding of the German race program, that sounds a big price for a horse that doesn’t seem to have any Group or Listed form to his name.
Anyone with local knowledge care to extol his virtues?
Frankly, I’m astonished at the price, and personally, I would have thought he would have gone for a 5 figure rather than a 6 figure sum. OK, he won a Listed race at Munich last time out, but he only beat one of Christians by 3 lengths, and that horse (Personal Power), as much as we love him in the yard, is no superstar, more a class 2/3 handicapper.
I saw El Dancer run at Hamburg at the Derby meeting, and he went off favourite for a handicap, but only finished 4th. He could actually be a really decent recruit to hurdling (I guess that’s what will happen to him), but he wouldn’t be any better on the flat in Germany than say Donaldson, who hasn’t really made any great shakes this year.
Darren – AngloGerman
________________________________________‘The Hungarian’s going hell for leather’ – Jim McGrath
Darren,
Thanks for the info – like you, I assume he’s been sold to go hurdling, but the buyer is ‘Richard Venn Bloodstock’, and I’m not familiar with that name, so I’ve no idea who he’s been bought for.
A bit of a Venn Lottery, then?
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Darren,
There’s another batch of ex-German 3-y-olds due to be sold on Wednesday, entered by the agent Jamie Railton (he’s more associated with pin-hooking at the yearling sales over here)
They are called First Smash, Lancetto and Narcisco.
Do you have any idea how they would compare to El Dancer in terms of flat ability? Any info would be gratefully received as my trainer is looking for a 3-y-old dual purpose horse for one of his owners.
Thanks
Corm,
If they go for the same sort of price, that’ll be ten times more than the budget anyway.
Just read on the Post website that El Dancer goes to Lucy Wadham for an existing owner – which could be the Pakenhams who owned Sir Percy and had The Dark Lord with Wadham.
Apparently McManus, Noel Meade and Simon Christian (who I think buys for Jim Lewis amongst others) were also interested in El Dancer.
Richard Venn has also bought Fenix and United for Lucy Wadham, so the Pakenhams are not the only candidates.
Darren,
There’s another batch of ex-German 3-y-olds due to be sold on Wednesday, entered by the agent Jamie Railton (he’s more associated with pin-hooking at the yearling sales over here)
They are called First Smash, Lancetto and Narcisco.
Do you have any idea how they would compare to El Dancer in terms of flat ability? Any info would be gratefully received as my trainer is looking for a 3-y-old dual purpose horse for one of his owners.
Thanks
No problem – All of these are bred and owned by the Ittlingen Stud, whose white with red stripe colours are some of the most famous in Germany. I’ve seen two of these horses in action, and here’s a quick resume of them:
FIRST SMASH – Nicely bred by Monsun out of a Surumu mare, so stamina all the way here. Not really achieved much in Germany though – was well beaten in a Derby trial I remember, and subsequently well beaten in a couple of ordinary handicaps since. Probably not as good as El Dancer.
LANCETTO – By Dubai Destination out of an Acatenango mare. Was turned over at 1-5 in a maiden race at Cologne in August, but don’t let that put you off, as this horse has one of the best bits of form you’ll see. I was at Duesseldorf in April where he was third (and our syndicate have since bought the second!!), however, his run in finishing second in a Group 3 at Frankfurt in May has massive significance, especially when you consider he got within 1 1/2 lengths of Kamsin, the top 3 year old in Germany this year (won German Derby and Grosser Preis von Baden). Yes, he can flatter to deceive, but if can recapture his Frankfurt form, you could have a really decent horse on your hands. Better than El Dancer, but does appear to have his quirks.
NARCISCO – By Fantastic Light out of a Sadlers Wells mare, and was 12th in the German Derby, but has only had 5 runs, and is quite difficult to assess. Has however run decently in a couple of Listed races, so there may be more to come. Potentially better than El Dancer.
Hope this helps. I’m seriously excited by the prospecnt of Lancetto coming to Britain, but don’t forget, Donaldson was also an ex-Ittlinger with an arguably better profile than Lancetto, and he’s not done anywhere near as good over hurdles I thought he would.
One other thing I’d like to point out – these three horses have been trained by three of the best trainers in Germany, so I would be surprised if there was much more improvement in them.
Darren – AngloGerman
________________________________________‘The Hungarian’s going hell for leather’ – Jim McGrath
Darren,
Thank you very much for that most detailed and helpful information.
It’s been said before, but it’s worth repeating, that the breadth of knowledge of the members and the willingness to share information is the best thing about TRF.
Don’t forget that Ittlingen Stud is big (some 35 mares), but hasn´t had a good racing-season this year. So they try to sell their medium-class colts which might have a future in British NH sport or handicap.sport – remember Carraciola!
I try to ‘translate’ their official GAG-ratings on the flat in BHB-ratings:
El Dancer 82 lbs., First Smash 59 lbs., Narcisco 90 lbs. Lancetto 95 lbs.
As http://www.galopp-sieger.de is complete for German Listed and Group-races, you will find the best performances of those horses there ("Stammtafeln").
Parlo/Darren
Are the races available to view on the galopp-sieger site? I want to watch the Baden-Baden race won by Chantilly Tiffany on Sunday and have found the result, but cant seem to find any video footage (my German is very poor!).
Thanks for any help.
Mark
There is a video-library for German races at http://www.pferdewetten.de – but you must have an account.
There was also First Stream from Ittlingen Stud in the ring and took 150,000 gns.
He was several times placed in G1-races over here – but seldom looked like a winner in these races. He had a good "general handicap-rating" (= German "GAG") of 97 kg = 114 lbs BHB last year and is now rated at 94 kg = 108 lbs BHB. Another future Cesarewitch- or Northumberland Plate-winner "made in Germany"?
I`ll throw in my tuppence!!
EL DANCER went for a fair price in my opinion,he`s always been highly regarded and did manage to win 5 from 9 starts,he likes winter ground,2.5 mile should be perfect,plenty of scope and looks like an hurdler!!
LANCETTO is over-rated, if you consider he was turned over at odds of 1.2 by a horse rated 74.5 (Flat Eric) , this horse as disappointed more than not and im not sure i would touch anything origionally trained by Mario Hofer,whilst he looks the business he`s only won 1 from 7 and he`s likely to go for an inflated price
FIRST SMASH was beaten off a German mark of 72.5,whilst he`s lightly raced his win ratio of 1 from 8 probably sums him up,he lacks the scope of the others!!
NARCISCO would be my buy if the price was fair,trained by Peter Schiergen he doesn`t have many miles on the clock,he would travel through winter ground,he`s got plenty of scope and as shown listed class form,this is the one i would be most excited about as he moves like an hurdler and he could reach the heights!!
Just going back to EL DANCER, if Donaldson went for a reported 360K this horse looks cheap at the price,if i remember correct Lucy Wadham paid big bucks (Around same price) for the 7-y-o AUGUSTINE,he was rated mid 60`s on the flat and had over 60 races in the tank,i hope he does well!!
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