The home of intelligent horse racing discussion
The home of intelligent horse racing discussion

Dubai World Cup 2012

Home Forums Big Races – Discussion Dubai World Cup 2012

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 45 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #21357
    andyod
    Member
    • Total Posts 4012

    J.O’Brien is the rider for So You Think.Methinks Coolmore must be swimming in money to have such an expensive toy for the O’Brien children to play with.Shame really.

    #398367
    Miss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1335

    I’m surprised he can still make weight.

    #398368
    nulty
    Participant
    • Total Posts 443

    Joseph is a good jockey, it’s a shame that you can’t see he is as good as any jockey available and probably the best in respect of the fact that he lives with the horse. I take exception to your comment.

    #398474
    andyod
    Member
    • Total Posts 4012

    There are many good jockeys out there.Joseph, with the power of Ballydoyle behind, him shared the apprentice championship with two other young apprentices in Ireland who had no such back up forces to help them.Godolphin swooped to get the best young jockeys,DeSousa and Bartelona, while Ballydoyle is influenced by the family ties.I have no problem saying Joseph may become a good,even first rate, jockey in time.However to be gifted the best horses in the world ,anyone could win on some and lose on most.Where would Joseph be today without Coolmore? How many classic rides would he get if his name had been Levy instead of O’Brien?How many yards rush to put him up when not required to ride for Ballydoyle in the classics? We shall see. For me I like to see young lads pay their dues before being awarded accolades.(complete their apprenticeship and then earn their spurs as a young jockey without a claim)

    #398503
    nulty
    Participant
    • Total Posts 443

    Sounds like sour grapes to me.

    #398515
    marbine
    Participant
    • Total Posts 77

    It looks a weaker race than normal…

    I think that the winner will be either…

    Capponi, Eishin Flash, Silver Pond, So You Think or Zazou.

    They will be the ones that I play in my multis anyway along with MOHs..

    Push to shove – Eishin Flash from Zazou & So You Think.

    The Sheema Classic looks extremely thin to me also. SNA appears to be the class horse but will he be ready with a long season ahead? Will CDA run the trip? Treasure Beach is also classy. Cavalryman looks to be back to somewhere near his best. Great run last start on a leader dominated track. Beaten Up looks promising. Cavalryman from SNA & Beaten Up for me. Won’t leave TB out of multis.

    The Duty Free on the other hand looks to be a clinker of a race. Many different form lines here.

    It’s the 3 from Asia for me – Dark Shadow, Ambitious Dragon & Xtension.

    Golden Sheheen – Sepoy, Lucky Nine, Rocket Man.

    Al Quoz – Ortensia, Joy & Fun, Prohibit.

    Looks to be a great day’s (night!) racing.

    #398516
    andyod
    Member
    • Total Posts 4012

    Marbine,did you pick So You Think before a jockey was announced or after a jockey was announced?Do jockeys influence your decision?

    #398517
    andyod
    Member
    • Total Posts 4012

    Nulty please explain the meaning of "Sour Grapes".

    #398518
    marbine
    Participant
    • Total Posts 77

    Marbine,did you pick So You Think before a jockey was announced or after a jockey was announced?Do jockeys influence your decision?

    To some degree they do.

    #398537
    nulty
    Participant
    • Total Posts 443

    Well, I’ve looked it up hence and it doesn’t communicate my point the way I intended so I’ll rephrase.

    What I actually mean is that it sounds like you don’t like the fact that he gets the ride for the reasons you outlined, ie, he’s the son of the trainer. It sounds like your bitter about his privileged position. Your post doesn’t appear to give him credit for his achievements and focuses only on the fact that he’s been given these opportunities when others have not.

    Who cares where JP would be without Coolmore. He’s there and shown that he’s god enough to ride their horses.

    As Alex Ferguson says: "If they’re good enough, they’re old enough"

    #398553
    andyod
    Member
    • Total Posts 4012

    Nulty I don’t believe that he is a proven world class jockey. Not good enough to ride for Coolmore as first jockey.He was equal first in the race to be champion apprentice in Ireland two years ago.Had any of those other lads been given the chance they would at least accomplished what he has achieved.Does that make all three world class jockeys? I don’t think so.Having watched racing for seventy years I am somewhat settled in my expectations regarding jockeys and priviledged children.Had O’Brien arrived in England three years ago would he have won the Championship last year? I doubt it.Is he as good a jockey right now as Murtagh,Fallon,Kinane,yes even Spencer, were when riding for Coolmore? You tell me.Incidentally Nulty it is not a question of where JOB would be without Coolmore it is a question of where Coolmore will be without a first rate jockey.I am more interested in Cathy Gannon’s struggle to make it as a jockey than watching the proud and privileged ride their daddy’s blue blood horses.But that’s me.

    #398561
    nulty
    Participant
    • Total Posts 443

    You still seem preoccupied by his background. He rides the horses out everyday, he is an accomplished jockey who is best placed to ride the horse. I’m not trying to say he is the best jockey in the world but putting him on board has advantages that no other jockey has. He lives with the horses and the trainer. We all know that Coolmore, and any one else for that matter don’t work with just the best, they work with people they can trust and rely on. Joseph has shown (because he has been given the opportunity) that he can handle the pressure, can execute a plan from any position in the race, he is 100% loyal to Ballydoyle and he is one of the best jockeys for the job. Your arguments are coloured with a resentment for his privileges and not the bare pros and cons of having him ride the horses. Your position on the matter just not objective.

    #398562
    rich1985
    Member
    • Total Posts 1220

    It looks a weaker race than normal…

    I think that the winner will be either…

    Capponi, Eishin Flash, Silver Pond, So You Think or Zazou.

    They will be the ones that I play in my multis anyway along with MOHs..

    Push to shove – Eishin Flash from Zazou & So You Think.

    The Sheema Classic looks extremely thin to me also. SNA appears to be the class horse but will he be ready with a long season ahead? Will CDA run the trip? Treasure Beach is also classy. Cavalryman looks to be back to somewhere near his best. Great run last start on a leader dominated track. Beaten Up looks promising. Cavalryman from SNA & Beaten Up for me. Won’t leave TB out of multis.

    The Duty Free on the other hand looks to be a clinker of a race. Many different form lines here.

    It’s the 3 from Asia for me – Dark Shadow, Ambitious Dragon & Xtension.

    Golden Sheheen – Sepoy, Lucky Nine, Rocket Man.

    Al Quoz – Ortensia, Joy & Fun, Prohibit.

    Looks to be a great day’s (night!) racing.

    Cavalryman deserves a big win – has been on the perimeter in a host of group ones in the last few years, just needs everything to fall right which means he’s a risky proposition.

    Beaten Up has been hugely impressive to date and slammed a decent group 3 field LTO. He has a good pilot and while this is his toughest test, could win again.

    I agree with the sentiments re. SNA. Was poor FTO last year and the stable’s perennial slow starts has to be of concern (last weekend’s start at the Curragh was inconspicuous again). Looked at his very best end of last year, but is also risky. That said TB won FTO last year, I guess every horse is different. TB has a great chance judged on his Derby second and Irish Derby win, he’d be my idea of the winner.

    The ground would be of concern for CDA, but is a top class performer. Not for me on this occasion though.

    BU or TB for me.

    #398566
    rich1985
    Member
    • Total Posts 1220

    The Japanese look to have a strong hand again this year in the World Cup, with Eishin Flash, Smart Falcon and last year’s runner up Transcend. The first two look to be polar opposites, EF only winning two races (albeit has lots of G1 form) whereas SF is a winning machine (albeit mostly at pattern level,though did win a G1 time before last). Transcend has been beaten by SF, but boasts course form with a good second last year. Wasn’t so good LTO however. I think SF is on the up and could prove best of them.

    The Godolphin runners will find it tough as will Capponi, MOH and Silver Pond though the US challenge lead by Game On Dude, who beat SYT last year in the BCC, looks quite decent, but not in the same league as Curlin,Well Armed or Invasor I don’t think. Not sure about the surface for the French, though Planteur has exhibited good form FTO(beat CDA, Cape Blanco and Sarafina at Longchamp) and has a very capable jockey. He could go close for Botticelli after a break.

    SYT’s form tailed off last year but has undoubted class and will stay well, has to be a doubt about the yard having him ready FTO however. Should be in the reckoning though.

    Smart Falcon, Planteur and SYT for me.

    #398595
    Presto
    Member
    • Total Posts 315

    Cirrus Des Aigles stays 12f well on all available evidence. Huge run in the HK Vase a few yrs back after tough trip, finished strong after taken back early in a Japan Cup, romped home by 10 lengths in weak race over 2500m on very soft. He doesn’t have the fastest sprint if races turn into a crawl e.g. the latest HK Cup and Sarafina cutting him down over 12f. But if there’s any pace he’ll go close. Handles fast ground fine, there are countless examples of that. Hopefully his first-up run has him ready… he usually needs a few runs to hit peak form.

    Ambitious Dragon the one to beat in the Duty Free. California Memory can match him but he’s little, needs to wind up and has a trickier draw. The Dragon has the push-button acceleration and size to get out of trouble. On sectionals it’s doubtful that peak-form Presvis could match those two on ability, same for the Wigmore and the others. Wet track could help others and possibly hurt the top two.

    Dark Shadow a possible dark horse. I’ve looked at his runs but I don’t think he has enough to beat the two HK horses. Cityscape handled fast ground fine in Hong Kong, debunking that idea. He might be a wildcard, perhaps Green Destiny is still unexposed and Rajsaman if pace is on. But the top HK two look the standouts and the Dragon has a great chance to take it out. Should be noted that the Dragon’s never raced left-handed and Cali hasn’t done it in 3 years.

    #398596
    JJMSports
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2036

    Game on Dude. Seriously underestimated.

    #398630
    nulty
    Participant
    • Total Posts 443

    Game On Dude in the car park unfortunately. Had to be someone though.

    As for Ballydoyle undercooking their horses. They’re not going to send out G1 horses to Dubai undercooked. That is impossible to believe. Maybe at The Curragh but not in the desert!

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 45 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.