- This topic has 106 replies, 53 voices, and was last updated 16 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
MRC, lovely to hear a opinion different to my own, unlike some people I think thats what classifies a forum. Kauto will never beat Denman, and Denman will never be beaten as long as there is no skullduggery involved. Can you handle that, or do you feel the need like some people to tell me all was not said and done in the holy bible?
thats a strange post, it implies i was asking for an opinion lol
i was merely stating how it is going to happen. and after seeing Denman die at the end, which btw he DID do lol it is plain to see which one has the scope for yet even more improvement, btw even though today proved KS to be somewhat superior by quite away, just getting that close to denman today, with the way denman performed in comparison to KS is out of this world, and he will be proven one day to be better than Arkle. I’ll still say, today Denman was good as Nicholls said, ‘his just good’. But if somone coms to you and says, right i can guaratee they will both run to 100 percent of there ability, after today, there is absolutely noway you could possibly back Denman, lol, bring on the rematch ;;)Fist,
I’m not slagging you – I’m just pointing out that you seem to have backed every wiinner after the event.
Let me remind you that you were all over Binocular for the Triumph – you said you had backed him for a lot of money and stood to win fortunes etc. You also agreed that he wouldn’t be turning up in the Supreme Novices.
Yet when he was confirmed as a Supreme Novices runner (about 48 hours before the race) you suddenly seem to have backed him massively ante-post
– you didn’t even know he was running in the Supreme for crying out loud – so how have you backed him to win thousands ante-post?I’m not questioning your bets and don’t care how much you have won/lost, and me and you get on quite well and talk frequently via PM – however, that won’t stop me saying what I think and that I think you make a few bets up after the race. Sorry if I’m wrong – no personal offence intended.
Mike
You can bet your sweet as you are wrong……….. when did I ever say I had backed Binocular for fortunes in the Triumph Hurdle? I told you in a PM I backed the horse immediatlety after his first race at 10/1 in a PM on the 22nd of Jan if you care to look at your messages….I couldnt have told you what was going to be running in the race at that time do you think I am stone fookin mad?
Tell you what mike to put your mind at rest PM me and I will give you a URL to a tipping competition I enetered for Cheltenham……..at the end of the second day I was 500 points up despite not including New Alco ew and Crackaway Jack……look back your PM on the latter and tell me if I lie about him when I said I did not back Binocluar because I was thought he was a bit special………..that was on the 22nd of Jan………..I’ve touted CAJ on here why the fook would I not bet him?…….I never bet him on the day I bet him when the bettting come out at a lousy 11/2 my bad for not settting him on the day I thought he had too much wieight……..how many punters spotted him the first time he ran or even when he finished behind Binocular…….not one person mate…….I study races inside out not just look at the silver lining and that’s why I make friggin money out the game…..maybe not he best on here by a long way others like bullwark has a great eye on him but he’s probably after timing like me in your eyes………That same guy was on Money Trix at 20/1 before the lads in the yard had even bet him……unforunately he ws injured but some people do have a good insight into racing……….it doesn’t make them after timers………he dug out Binocular way before me at 33/1. sure I had heard he was expected to do well but I never had his foresight……How unlucky was he not to collect on the horse if he had ran he would have pissed all over the top of Franchoek……………..so because I took 14/1 ew nrnb (because I think carvils pointed it out to me and I said in a thread I took the price) and then when he was confirmed a runner and opened at12/1 I grabbed the price again EW I’m an after timer on ahorse i have been touting on here since January you expect people to believe for one minute i would bet the horse then you friggin nuts……..with 1/4 the odds plus Khalahari KIng posted on here months ag among my ap EW bets Mick………..you do the sums and add in the EW bet I had on Binny in the Triumph..and tell me how you figure out how I could possible lose the race………..then look back my best and see if I backed tidal Bay when he drifted out to 12/1 or Katchit my original choice for the champion hurdle who I have defened on here hand a fist………..then come back and show me one bet after timed………..lousy statement lousy low down post.
I share your outrage, Fists, what a ridiculous suggestion……….go and have a lie down, old man!
Colin
I can’t believe some are saying it was a disappointing race (is that because they didn’t back the winner).
MikeMM,
You have posted some ridiculous rubbish on here, but somehow you seem to have surpassed yourself. So, let me get this right .. one is not allowed to state an opinion that it was a disappointing race, as that can only mean they are talking through their wallet?
Kauto Star clearly never travelled or jumped, and this was plain to see from early on in the race, long before Denman could have had any effect on Kauto Star’s running. I believe Denman may still have won, but there are a lot of factors which don’t leave, for me, a satisfactory post-race feeling.
Kauto Star seemed to stay every bit the trip as Denman, as he closed on him by quite a few lengths over the last 2 fences.
The proximity of Neptune Collonges. Can one really believe this horse is near the Pantheon of Greatness of 180+ chasers?
History recalls that prior to Arkle’s showdown with Mill House in the never to be forgotten 1964 Gold Cup showdown, supporters of both horses would not entertain the thought of defeat for their particular favourite.
Following Arkle’s comprehensive victory, the devotees of Mill House reeled out the excuses. It was a false run race and If only Mill House hadn’t made the running Wait until next time and this Irish upstart will be put firmly in his place… blah, blah, blah.
They could not accept the fact that the horse they had thought as being invincible had been beaten by a better horse.
Ring any bells?
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Where are the excuses?
MM said in all his drunkeness that you can only be talking through your pocket if you subscribe to the view it was a disappointing race. I articulated above why i felt it was.
Read my post again if you like..
Think a few have taken words out of context.
It was disappointing Kauto did not run to form, and I would still rate Kauto Star 2 or 3 lbs above Denman. But the actual performance was better than most Gold Cups of the last 10 years. Better than Kauto Stars and possibly Best Mates as well.
Anyone got a spare 2 million quid?
What if Harry Findlay, Paul Barber and Clive Smith were offered 2 million quid, winner take all. For Master Minded, Kauto Star and Denman to meet in a 2m4f race at Ascot or wherever next season. I am sure if the trainer gets half, Paul Nicholls could persuade the owners.
Go on lads, you know you want to.
Ginge
Now imagine that? Who would stage this ‘race’, who would enter, mouthwatering, but I can’t see it happening.
- Total Posts 12
Denman remined me of MILL HOUSE and I loved that horse!
Well done to him for his win.
Maybe the favourite wasnt himself but never in doubt that the ”Big Horse” won a good race and derserves credit!
I would think most horsemen would like a ride on him!
Think your too big for this forum FofF, you need to start your own forum to hold all your wisdom
History recalls that prior to Arkle’s showdown with Mill House in the never to be forgotten 1964 Gold Cup showdown, supporters of both horses would not entertain the thought of defeat for their particular favourite.
Following Arkle’s comprehensive victory, the devotees of Mill House reeled out the excuses. It was a false run race and If only Mill House hadn’t made the running Wait until next time and this Irish upstart will be put firmly in his place… blah, blah, blah.
They could not accept the fact that the horse they had thought as being invincible had been beaten by a better horse.
Ring any bells?
You speak the truth my friend and the big horse is a machine there is no doubting that. I could remind you that on the first meeting Mill House defeated Arkle and it was Arkle who went on to be the better of the two by far……….I could remind you but I won’t because I am too nice a guy to do that
Denman was thee horse on the day no disputing that.
Maybe Kauto will never beat Denman but it is a fact that the first 1/2 of the race was slightly faster than last year but the second half was dreadfully slow………Denman beat NC I sa wit with my own eyes what I did not see was the Kauto Star I know.
If he had come there cantering 3 out and the big horse had beat him 1 length I would be much happier than I am just now……Kauto Star 100% fit, run the worst race of his life IMO.
I still think he has amonumental task to try an beat Denman but I am willing to back him to do so 4/1 Kauto Star is a great price……I know it’s also 4/1 PN keeping the horse straight but I think he will. get on!!!
If Kauto Star is incapable of beating Denman, I’ll eat my own arm.
He barely jumped a fence (I think he’d have done better had Ruby kicked him into a couple though) and wasn’t as suited by the draining conditions – even the winner was struggling after the last, and he’s supposedly a 185+ machine. Back on decent ground it’s game over for Findlay’s beloved ‘Denmania’ (exactly the reason they will not be going to Kempton in December) and 4/1 about good ground is a cracking bet…
To set the matter in a broader context, the last two paragraph in an article in today’s Daily Mirror, I think, by Newsboy:
"Ladbrokes rate Denman an even money chance to repeat hs Gold Cup victory in 2009 – while the British Horseracing Authority’s senior handicapper, Phil Smith, allotted the new star a provisional rating of 185.
He’s the best around, but he hasn’t matched Arkle yet, as he would have been rated over 200 under modern handicapping methods."
In other words, at least, a stone better, though somewhat (not a lot) arguable in view of the different handicappers. And I think after Arkle’s wins, the jockey said he wanted to go round again. He had a job pulling him up. It was all so easy! They had to reframe the big handicaps so that he wasn’t the only runner. I think he had to carry 12.7.
Horseracing is bit like p*ss, it can bring out an uncharacteristic arrogance in nice people, decent types, though I doubt if it would in old codgers, who’ve seen too much of the game.
I said on here I thought Denman would win, and stated why. In the event, I was vindicated. But I might not have been. And another time, I’ll express an opinion I’ll be stone wrong.
I do it every day, when the horse I most fancy goes down, and some rag I bet on tentatively (and Denman was a very tentative selection. I didn’t want to bet on it), wins; usually at a much bigger price, when it happens, than Denman’s, which I wouldn’t have bet on with Gordon Brown’s or Margaret Thatcher’s money.
If I had, I’d have been as happy as Larry and congratulated myself on my perspicacity. But it would have been madness. Just a lucky stroke of madness on that occasion. I don’t know about you, but I would probably then have felt prompted to think it was a sign that I knew how to bet. And I would have lost my winnings within the week. I’ve just surfaced today from a long spell in the doldrums, with a couple of lucky long-shots. But the two or three long-shots I’d most fancied to win, and duly weighted, lost.
I’d have to concede that you and others may have picked Denman for the shrewdest of reasons, and self-satisfaction in those circumstances is natural, human and beneficial. But always retain at the back of your mind that on other occasions you felt just as confident about losers, the outcome wasn’t pleasing at all, and it’s the nature of racing. It’s apparently a truism that even the most successful punters have quite long losing spells. Heck, considering we’re all human, this has got a bit pompous. The main point is that racing makes fools of us all in may ways.
Great post Grimes and oh so very true.
As far as comparing Denman to Arkle is concerned people should never forget there was Arkle and then there was "Himself" who came a little later in life.
Both he and Mill House were already giving moderate horses lumps of weight and beating them but racing was very different then……..if you wanted to run a good horse there wasn’t as many races to run them in.
Denman did what they did when he won the Hennessy and no doubt a fit Kauto Star could do the same if he had to.The 1964 Arkle would have been hard pushed to do to Denman what he did to Mill House IMO………..Like most young horses Arkle improved, but he improved out of all recognition between 1964 and the start of the next season……..he simply treated Mill House with total contempt and everything else that stood in his way from that day onwards….when they met in the 1965 Gold Cup Arkle won in a common canter by 20 lengths and "Himself was born.
One look at Denman tells you he is totally different type of horse the two are like choc and cheese……Denman is well named…"The Tank" he’s much more like Mill House than Arkle…..he is what he is and I can’t see him improving like Arkle did…….I think Denman will be around for a long time and won’t change one way or another and with what’s around could win grade 1 races standing on his head for a good few years to come but he’s probably in the prime of his life right now IMO
If any horse comes around that can be regarded as good as it wont be
a Denman type horse because he and his type don’t have the toe Arkle had and that’s what made him so unique he had everythin Denman had plus he had a trun of foot like Bula built in……he took time to get into gear but when he did no horse could live with him.That comes once in a life time. I thought Kauto Star was the one horse that I have seen that could have done that……..I expected him to be able to get to Denman and simple change gear and destroy him and how wrong I was.
God knows Kauto Star looked to have improved out of all recognition in the King George and like Arkle could have gone round again.
However as wrong as I was I haven’t given up on him.
I know it will take an Arkle type performance for Kauto Star to beat the big horse I’d be a fool if I thought any other way…………This big horse is the best round for many many years but I am conviced there’s a better one…………namely Kauto Star…….time will tell.
There’s no point even trying to compare horses who raced 40 years apart. Every day, in every single race, people try to compare ones of the SAME era and get it wrong!
Let’s celebrate Arkle as a great Champ of the 60s and Denman as one of the current decade. There’s room for more than one at the top.
- Total Posts 12
agree!
Enjoy these moments with the ”TANK”-
His a cracking Champion with a great future!
Good luck to Denman and his TeamKauto Star a very good horse; of that there is little doubt. He will probably run at Aintree in a few weeks time and prove to everyone just how good a horse he is – as if we had any doubt – but right now, he is the second best staying chaser in the land.
Is Kauto any better than Desert Orchid, for example, who won four King George’s, a Gold Cup, an SGB chase, not to mention a Whitbread … and a Tingle Creek and an Irish Grand National?
Let’s not forget Best Mate (three Gold Cups in a row), whose achievement in doing so, is being harshly criticised in some quarters. Wrongly, in my opinion.
Then there’s Burrough Hill Lad, champion chaser three years running, and another who is often underrated, or the great Silver Buck, himself a Gold Cup winner and twice victor of the King George, and of course Pendil, winner of his first twenty chases, a brilliant jumper, and a horse who would have given them all something to think about over three miles.
Salselon asked why bring Arkle is forever brought into the equation. I’ll tell you why. He is the standard by which all the aforementioned and those not mentioned ( past, present or future ) will be measured – even Denman !
It should be noted that both Desret Orchid and Arkle achieved their high timeform rating for lumping huge weights when winning good handicaps against other good horses, and not simply because of their Gold Cup and King George victories.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.