dEMOCRACY

[dave jay]

Those with a longer memory than your average 5 year old will remember that when the ‘war on terror’ was kicked off by Blah and Bush they called it a ‘war for democracy’ they quickly re-named it after a week or so for obvious reasons.

Now that the Palestinians have elected Hammas into power our government and the Yanks don’t like democracy.

Is this the biggest laugh of all or is it really showing these super gangsters up for what they are ?<br>

[wit]

hmmm….its a funny old world dave.

one of the big themes of the post-Iraq period was that Bush, Blair and the Ausssie John Howard  were all in trouble with angry electorates.

yet all three did go on to win re-election.

it’s the guys who opposed who are floundering – Schroder is out of office, Chirac is a lame duck.

you don’t have to be a fan of Bush/Blair/Howard to recognise that if you disagree with their approach you need to have an alternative to offer.

On Iran, the US hasn’t gone barging in but has left it to the UK, Germany and France to take the lead.  

Result?  Its looking like Iran will be a nuclear power within a year.

Mark Steyn in The Spectator:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Chirac warned that it would be a "grave error" for Iran and North Korea to ignore the international community.  

But, honestly, would it?

They know, even if Chirac doesn’t, that there is no "international community".

It would be a "grave error" to ignore America and (in the case of Iran) Israel, but the rest you can pretty much ignore with impunity.

Unless Chirac’s thretaening to call in US-led military action, they’ve got nothing to worry about……

2006 will mark the fifth anniversary of 9/11 and the third anniversary of the Iraq war.  It will not be a quiet year…..

Rumsfeld’s challenge:  you don’t like the way we do things?    Fine, what have you got?

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best regards

wit

[insomniac]

A funny world indeed Dj and GH. <br>I’ve no time for Blair (but quite admire Bush – honestly!).<br>As for Hamas – well, I’m not too surprised at their success – after all, the average Palestinian countenanced Yasser Arafat for long enough. <br>Palestinians ! Got a problem with high unemployment, duff economy, lawlessness, poor education – what should you do?<br>Hey – why not elect a bunch of bearded religious fanatics who wouldn’t look out of place in the dark ages!<br>(Although who are we to preach – we elected New Labour).<br>Oddly enough, it’s not inconceivable that pushing "legitimate" (ie  "democratically elected" ) power on to the Hamas nutters just might make them take more restrained actions – who knows? It’s also possible that they’ll make such a pi**-po*r job of things that the "electorate" will – in due course – give them the welly.<br>Iran is the big issue: Mark Steyn (as usual) has got things spot-on. (By the way Wit – hi to a fellow Spectator reader !).   I suspect Israel will take a pre-emptive strike at Iran’s nuclear bases; there’s no point them waiting for the wet-lettuce EU to improve things there. We can only hope that before any Israeli strike, the current Iranian regime is toppled by  a less fanatical group.<br>Worst case scenario?  Israel blasts Iran. Oil crisis. Fill up your cars with petrol now – it aint gonna get any cheaper.<br> And thank heavens for someone starting a thread that’s not to do with Big Brother or word association. <br>

(Edited by insomniac at 7:49 pm on Jan. 27, 2006)

[insomniac]

:wave:  Hi EC. Maybe you’re right. Now if George jnr was in BB I might indeed start watching it!

[insomniac]

What worries me is that the west and the commies were restrained from using their nuclear arsenal because neither were that keen on their own death. Unfortunatley, the nutters in power in Iran don’t quite seem to view death in the same way.  

[insomniac]

Fair points re. Hamas GH.

[wit]

GH,

I hope you’re right, but fear you’re wrong when I read Hamas’ Charter:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><br>Art 13.

..There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

Art 15

…..The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews’ usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.

…It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

you can read the whole thing at

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

<br>So, how should one democracy respond to a non-negotiable demand by another for its destruction ?

best regards

wit

[wit]

peaty,

even were the rulers of Israel (or Occupied Palestine, according to your perspective) so minded, Gaza is too close to nuke.

nor is it necessary: Israel/ Occupied Palestine already controls the water, electricity and flow of goods/persons in and out of Gaza.    

when the doors were shut on the suicide bombers, the Palestinians lost 100,000 jobs to Asian and African guest workers.

what’s happened in the election is down to the  ineptitude and corruption in the Palestinian Authority, causing lawlessness and impoverishment.  

When Arafat retrnued to Gaza in 1993, Palestinian per capita income was USD 3,000.  Today its USD 934, and 66% of that is foreign aid, mainly from the US and the EU –  another lever on the Palestinians.

Maybe the electorate has figured that if they install their own Taliban they can in a few years be "rescued" like Afghanistan and showered (for a while at least) with many more international dollars.

Problem with that thinking is that there is already a surfeit of control capability over them by those potential "rescuers".

that leaves the possibility of getting more funds from their neighbours by tapping into Islamicist funding by going for a 100% Islamist party rather than the multi-faith Fatah (most of whose spokespeople are actually Christian).    

but the neighbours have always been more liberal with words than with purse-strings.

its all very desperate: having now given those witha  vested interest in Middle East peace a shock, the best thing that could happen would be for them to clean up their act and go moderate, releasing the international purse strings, but who’s going to be the nation-builder?

best regards

wit  

[Sailing Shoes]

Quote: from Grasshopper on 7:12 pm on Jan. 27, 2006[br]Strange that Iraq is invaded when it was abundantly clear to anyone who would listen that they didn’t have even a nascent WMD capability, yet Iran goes unchallenged by the US, despite very much having the capability within their grasp.

Got me scratching my head that one. Not exactly consistent is it.

Unless the war in Iraq never really was about WMD in the first place? In which case we have all been lied to, by the very people we elect to represent us.

What a great democracy.

<br>

As I believe, we were taken to war because Iraq hadn’t complied over several years with the resolutions that they agreed to after the original Gulf war. Maybe the job should have been done properly first time around. It is IMO inappropriate to treat Iran & Iraq the same.

Peaty,

It is people like yourself that encourages terrorism on our own doorstep – you should watch your comments they are hugely out of touch with common sense.

(Edited by Sailing Shoes at 2:23 pm on Jan. 29, 2006)

[dave jay]

So what if the Palestinians actually want to demolish Isreal and support the route of Jihad ?

Maybe Muslims and Arabs shouldn’t be allowed to vote at all because they will always chose their regilious convictions over mcdonalds, KFC and meaningless aid packages.

If anyone is following the trial of Abu Hamza they will have a good handle on what this Jihad is all about. He sounds like a revolutionary communist and his message is basically along the lines of ‘why are Muslims treat so badly the world over’ .. if the West ignore Hamas and cut off the Palestinians it will only prove that he is right and further legitimise the cause.

Could it be that they are right and we are wrong ?

[dave jay]

There can be no definition between right and wrong, as you say GH .. ‘there is no such thing as good and evil, only the mind makes it so ..  to quote Dickens.

I had forgotten about the suggested cease fire .. maybe I’ve been having too much flouride. They are really screwed when it comes to Iran though, they can’t restrict the flow of oil into China and they can’t let Iran have nukes .. I can feel a surgical/tactical strike coming on.<br>

[wit]

Two sayings come to mind:

1.   Political beliefs: they start as a cause, turn into a career, and can end up as a racket.

What Hamas has going for it is that its still at stage 1; Fatah has been around long enough to hit stage 3.

2.  Might is right – not in any moral sense, but in the practical legal sense that if you have enough might, it ends up being legitimated, since the point of a government is that it has the monopoly on force within its society.    One reason for the talk of a  Palestinian Army.

Hamas’ approach to Fatah to form a government of national unity probably reflects its unease about facing the world on its own.  It needs a bit of cover and respectability.

Slogans of no negotiations and death to Israel sound very different coming from an underground militia engaged in a struggle against occupation, than they do coming from a government in power seeking international legitimacy and financial support.

How enthusiastic will the electorate that voted Hamas into power remain if eg the salaries due the 150,000 Palestinians on the public payroll (and which are basically funded by EU and US handouts) are not paid ?

best regards

wit

[Sailing Shoes]

Peaty,

I have no problem with freedom of thought, sadly the only thought you have come up with is……

Quote: from Peaty Sandy on 9:33 pm on Jan. 27, 2006[br]Nuke the f**kers.

<br>

quite sad really

[Sailing Shoes]

Quote: from Peaty Sandy on 11:27 am on Jan. 31, 2006[br]Muslim/Terrorist scum,

<br>

Please explain what you mean, am I to fear Muslims?

[Author]

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