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Yes, Himself, Sea The Stars was also exceptional, but it’s no coincidence that he and all the others on your list (with the exception of the Brigadier, whose best distance it was) never ran again over Im, after the Guineas.
Andyod,
I’d be fairly sure you don’t need me to tell you why Workforce and Conduit both chanced their arm in the Eclipse.Delegator that year was quite decent with close form with Zacinto, Mastercraftsman, etc. I think Rip would have beaten STS over a mile too but believe it would have been close, STS won the Guineas too well despite not being fully tuned.
"reet hard" wrote: Yes, Himself, Sea The Stars was also exceptional, but it’s no coincidence that he and all the others on your list (with the exception of the Brigadier, whose best distance it was) never ran again over Im, after the Guineas.
I think it’s fairly obvious why Sea The Stars didn’t run over a mile again. After the Derby, with the Arc/Breeder’s Cup Classic a likely end of season target, would it nor have been slightly detrimental to the horses chances in those races to be used to racing over a mile rather than settling over the classic distance? For instance, it was probably a better preparation for the Irish Champion Stakes running in other Group 1’s over 1m2f rather than G1 mile races. I’d say he would have beaten Rip over a mile.
I believe there was more than just "chancing his arm" when Stouty ran his Derby and Ark winner in the Eclipse over a mile and 2 having prepared him to meet SYT by winning the Brigadier Gerard. No;I believe he expected to beat So You Think and establish that WF was the champion over all distances.Taking his chance ..yes "Chancing his arm"..no.Now Conduit is another story.
- Total Posts 17716
I think it’s fairly obvious why Sea The Stars didn’t run over a mile again. After the Derby, with the Arc/Breeder’s Cup Classic a likely end of season target, would it nor have been slightly detrimental to the horses chances in those races to be used to racing over a mile rather than settling over the classic distance? For instance, it was probably a better preparation for the Irish Champion Stakes running in other Group 1’s over 1m2f rather than G1 mile races. I’d say he would have beaten Rip over a mile.
Yes, THM, but why do you think he didn’t go the Sussex/QE11/Breeder’s Cup Mile route? The whole Triple Crown/3yo pattern is based on horses developing as they mature, some develop stamina, others develop speed, and the former rarely revert to the latter races at the end of their 3yo season.
There’s also little question that Sea The Stars had his hardest race (watch the replays) in the Eclipse, where he beat RVW much less easier than he had in the Guineas, or that Delegator finished 2l further behind RVW in the Sussex than he had STS in the Guineas.Why didn’t he go the mile route? Prestige. He was always going to get further than a mile but that’s not to say he wasn’t or didn’t have the ability to be top class at a mile. Sea The Stars never beat horses by that far, and he dispatched Delegator quite easily imo. Rip set a very fast pace that day, turning the race into a test of stamina, which wouldn’t suit Delegator at any rate. I agree that the Eclipse was Sea The Stars hardest race, but he was in front plenty early enough there and Rip was never really getting by him. All in my opinion of course
Sea the Stars won every race he contested after his debut. In his classic year he only raced in group one company and defeated all comers because he was better than the rest. Exceptional horses can show their full maturity at 3 and he had nothing left to prove.
Like Pat Glennon on Sea Bird II, Mick Kinane knew he would never sit on anything else like him and they both did the only sensible thing you can, retire and be thankful they have had the chance to ride supreme examples of the thoroughbred.
Why not race on? I mean, his owners aren’t really strappcash are they?
Unfortunately breeding rules the horse racing world, no where more so than in Europe.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to see if he could have been an all time great? And before you answer he was, get real, he had a handful of starts as a 3yo. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not bagging him, he was a great champion… for one season. Nothing like seeing one come back for more season after season after season..
And if he came back and won everything at four you would say "he was a great champion, but only for two years and so on and on and on…." With such arguments as yours there is no winning.
And if he came back and won everything at four you would say "he was a great champion, but only for two years and so on and on and on…." With such arguments as yours there is no winning.
andyod, you don’t know me so, please, don’t pretend to know what I think.
If he cam back at 4 and dominated open age WFA G1s that would have been great, better than doing it at 3 when he can beat up on contemporaries and older horses with a weight advantage.
Believe it or not, I’m not a bagger. I just can’t fathom why on earth people in Europe (& the US for that matter) believe that 3yo racing is the be all & end all, including a 3yo racing in open age. You have so many great horses race in your part of the world but are robbed of continuity year after year by greedy studs & breeders. Hoe can you even measure how good a horse is compared to others when it just a continual conveyor belt year after year with different stars?
Believe it or not but most racegoers are only interested in the ticket in their pocket and the number on the saddle cloth.They become interested in an individual horse after he is acclaimed by the press.The history of the great horses is left to those like me who never bet.Also most owners only dream of having a horses good enough to go to the barn and make money to compensate for all they have invested in the ownership of racehorses.This is just an opinion of a onetime backer and small owner and not the result of a doctorate research project.
Sea the Stars won every race he contested after his debut. In his classic year he only raced in group one company and defeated all comers because he was better than the rest. Exceptional horses can show their full maturity at 3 and he had nothing left to prove.
Like Pat Glennon on Sea Bird II, Mick Kinane knew he would never sit on anything else like him and they both did the only sensible thing you can, retire and be thankful they have had the chance to ride supreme examples of the thoroughbred.
Spot on !
Two of the finest thoroughbred racehorses in the history of the sport. Glennon ( who had a continuing battle with the scales ) and Kinane ( who, like Glennon, had done it all, seen it all ) had nowhere left to go after partnering those magnificent colts. By partnering them, their racing pinnacle had been well and truly reached.
Whether those horses had raced for another season is immaterial; both had proved beyond question their undoubted brilliance on a racecourse. Sea Bird; flashy, highly strung, with arguably the most fluid running action you’ll ever witness, and who made class opponents look like selling platers by comparison , and Sea The Stars, who possessed the best temperament of any flat racehorse I have ever seen, coupled with an indomitable will to win.
I rate those two, along with Brigadier Gerard and Nijinsky ( before ringworm set in ) as the best I have seen – and of those, only "The Brigadier" raced as a four year old.
Maybe I can add Frankel to that illustrious list later on ?
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Sea the Stars had nothing to prove in my eyes. I’m just grateful that I fell in love with him at the very start of his 3rd year and followed his every move up until Arc day. British flat racing hasn’t been the same for me since he retired. Grateful to whoever it was that mentioned him in the Memorials section when Urban Sea died, which sparked my interest. Wasn’t Mick Kinane going to retire anyway, but gave himself another year knowing the sort of horse he would be riding that season?
Yes Mick was due to retire until STS came along. He was heard saying after seeing So You Think at the Curragh that he would come back if he could ride that horse!
I don’t like to knock champions but Sea The Stars was around in an awful year. Mastercraftsman, Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory – Ballydoyle inmates that wouldn’t be as good as So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn, Fame And Glory infact now becoming a stayer to make way for a new better brigade. His Guineas was awful beat Delegator narrowly who is a sprinter and not a 120’s horse in any case.
A very good horse, very versatile and consistant but would he be up there claswise with the likes of Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerrard, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave? No not in my opinion. He didn’t beat good enough horses nor did he ever post an outstanding figure.
I don’t like to knock champions but Sea The Stars was around in an awful year. Mastercraftsman, Rip Van Winkle, Fame And Glory – Ballydoyle inmates that wouldn’t be as good as So You Think, St Nicholas Abbey or Await The Dawn, Fame And Glory infact now becoming a stayer to make way for a new better brigade. His Guineas was awful beat Delegator narrowly who is a sprinter and not a 120’s horse in any case.
A very good horse, very versatile and consistant but would he be up there claswise with the likes of Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerrard, Nijinsky, Dancing Brave? No not in my opinion. He didn’t beat good enough horses nor did he ever post an outstanding figure.
Agree that he might not match up to the most talented ever but of course you can only beat what’s in front of you and he did so in good style. The Eclipse run was huge and some rate that quite highly, and STS cruised past Delegator who had close form with Mastercraftsman. Comparable to Zarkava (I think he was more impressive, pulled and trickier passage) on Arc run.
Rip is underrated. He didn’t run on any wet tracks as a 3yo and always ran well. Last year Aidan brought him along slowly when he was striking quick tracks (he was a bit short in Sussex too) and when finally 100% won the International. He’s a bit worse with cut in the ground (Irish Champion and QEII) as Aidan has mentioned; Aidan was proud of his run in the Irish Champion despite his being spanked by Cape Blanco.
Didn’t win the International last year by much (it was a strange run) but the way he finished suggests that he’s better than that margin, and the Eclipse run would support that.
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