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Linford Christie was a good sprinter. Carl Lewis was a great sprinter.
Donovan Bailey was a good sprinter. Maurice Greene was a great sprinter.
Frankie Fredericks was a good sprinter. Michael Johnson was a phenomenal sprinter.
Butch Reynolds was a good 400m runner. Michael Johnson was a phenomenal 400m runner.
Asafa Powell is a good sprinter. Usain Bolt is a freakish sprinter.
The perceived ‘class’ of every athlete is marked relative to those against which they compete week in, week out. Lewis, Greene and Johnson were leagues apart for much of their careers and can be deservedly labelled great, but with Usian Bolt breaking every record known to man are they now any less so?
Of course not. They carried all before them in their time and can’t, in any way, be accurately compared to their successors. Who’s to say how a primed Carl Lewis would perform against the best we have today, given current conditions, training aids and practice regimes? It’s nigh-on impossible and logic follows that the same is true of most sports.
Was George Best better than Cristiano Ronaldo? Was Marco Van Basten a greater striker than Fernando Torres? Was Ayrton Senna better than Michael Schumacher?
It seems to me that every other sport exists without the need to deny the abilities of its current stars, choosing instead to appreciate them alongside the heroes of days gone by; so why does horseracing have to be so different? Why is it unreasonable to hold Sea The Stars in the same acclaim as the likes of Mill Reef, Nijinsky and Dancing Brave, when common sense tells you that he’s a class apart (just as they were)?
Carl Lewis won olympic gold in 1984 by 0.2s, with Bolt winning by an extrapolated 0.37s in 2008 (he actually won by 0.2s, but slowed substantially to celebrate before crossing the line). Is Lewis merely ‘good’ because Bolt is now ‘great’?
Don’t make me laugh.
Ok lets put it another way. Tomorrow is Derby day and anyone can join in.
The runners. Sea Bird II, Mill Reef, Nijinjsky, Dancing Brave, Sea the Stars, Shergar, Sir Ivor.
I reckon Sea the Stars would be a 100/1 shot in among that lot.
You say he’s a class apart. A class apart from what? Rip Van Winkle, and Delegator.
You’ve lost the plot if you think a horse who won a crawl of a Derby and who’s trainer won’t send him to the worlds greatest race, namely the Arc will go down as an all time great. Absolutely no chance he’ll be forgotten in a flash. Whatsmore if he loses one race this season to the likes of Rip Van Winkle everything he has done will mean a damn site less than it does now.
He hasn’t trounced horses like Sea Bird II, Dancing Rave and Mill Reef did. He’s won easily yes but not in the fashion of a truly great.
You can type away for the next week but until he does something really spectacular like Zarkava did last season he’s just another ordinary Derby winner if you can even call him that.
Dear oh dear – "ordinary" Derby winners don’t win the Guineas and Eclipse as well do they?
You’ve written somewhere previously that if the horse won in a similar fashion against Conduit to the Derby / Guineas he would be regarding "one of the greats". He did. What has changed your mind?
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You’re going around in circles, Fist.
I’ve taken the liberty of browsing the first 7 or 8 pages of this thread, and have picked out the following remarks from your good self:
Sea the Stars has looked brilliant but this horse is a different proposition all together.
Nashwan and Mtoto both did the double and they are hard acts to follow but SMS hold Conduit in very high regard and loves to win this, hence he is sending his best horse to try.
One thing I noticed about Conduit albeit in the St Leger is he quickened up to take it up along way out and then when the second got within striking distance he quicked up again after looking like he was flat to the boards. It takes a very good horse to do that and I’m not so sure Sea the Stars will find that bit extra if Conduit can get him at it about a furlong and a half out. The last couple of hundreds yard can be very important at Sandown and that’s where i am hoping Conduit can find that little bit more.
He comes, he doesn’t come, won’t make any difference Conduit will murder him for toe. Give him a fast pace and he’ll hit he front 1f out and Sea the Stars won’t see the way he went.
In the Leger he quickened up twice!
The difference between the two horses is Conduit can sustain a long burst of acceleration all the way to the line. All we have seen from Sea the Stars is a short burst in the Guineas when Delegator challenged him and the same short burst at Epsom where he ran on well once in front.
Sea the Stars hasn’t shown a Nijinsky style burst of speed but he travels remakarbly well and can change gear to beat off his riivals. What we don’t know is can he do it if another horses get to him and he has to really fight.
I just feel Conduit has a lot more acceleration than Sea the Stars and I can’t see how he is going to cope with him. I really think it’s a foregone conclusion that Conduit will be way too good for him. I just can’t imagine Sea the Stars in a fight ovr the last furlong and a half and finding what it takes to win what I regard as his toughest task to date.
If the reason is he was still slightly undeveloped in the Guineas and the Derby, he could still turn out to be a very special horse.
You could just dismiss him and say he’s not good enough but personally I’d say he’s going to improve a lot with time.
It could come on Saturday or it might not come until next saeson but I believe he will turn out to be a top class horse before te end of the day.
One point is, horses that hit flat spots don’t often win when races turn into a sprint so the Derby pace probably never suited him as some people think.
Sea the Stars looks the part but he will have to be 7 to 10lbs better than Authorized to win. Conduit is certainly regarded a lot higher than Notnowcato was that’s for sure.
If it developes into a fight between him and Conduit and he wins this like he did his 2 previous races he will join the true greats of the game IMO
One thing’s for sure Conduit is a totally different ball game to what Delegator and Fame and Glory were when they met him.
Now, ignoring the fact that Sea The Stars quickened twice to win the Eclipse and has (by your own assertion) proven himself to be at least 7-10lb better than Authorized, why is he suddenly not worthy of joining the all time greats? He hasn’t had to fight Conduit because he’s absolutely murdered him, and he’s fended off Rip Van Winkle (a horse you claimed could still turn out to be very special) ultimately comfortably.
The athletics example was a waste of time, wasn’t it? Everything I needed was right here
STS quickened twice in The 2000 Guineas too, but the one in the Eclipse will always stand out in the memory and Jim McGrath calling it.
For me that was one of the best Eclipse races in years.
Sea The Stars ran a great race. It is one of the best horses I saw, and I can see a great future for him ahead. I can look at this race over and over again.
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You’re going around in circles, Fist.
I’ve taken the liberty of browsing the first 7 or 8 pages of this thread, and have picked out the following remarks from your good self:
Sea the Stars has looked brilliant but this horse is a different proposition all together.
Nashwan and Mtoto both did the double and they are hard acts to follow but SMS hold Conduit in very high regard and loves to win this, hence he is sending his best horse to try.
One thing I noticed about Conduit albeit in the St Leger is he quickened up to take it up along way out and then when the second got within striking distance he quicked up again after looking like he was flat to the boards. It takes a very good horse to do that and I’m not so sure Sea the Stars will find that bit extra if Conduit can get him at it about a furlong and a half out. The last couple of hundreds yard can be very important at Sandown and that’s where i am hoping Conduit can find that little bit more.
He comes, he doesn’t come, won’t make any difference Conduit will murder him for toe. Give him a fast pace and he’ll hit he front 1f out and Sea the Stars won’t see the way he went.
In the Leger he quickened up twice!
The difference between the two horses is Conduit can sustain a long burst of acceleration all the way to the line. All we have seen from Sea the Stars is a short burst in the Guineas when Delegator challenged him and the same short burst at Epsom where he ran on well once in front.
Sea the Stars hasn’t shown a Nijinsky style burst of speed but he travels remakarbly well and can change gear to beat off his riivals. What we don’t know is can he do it if another horses get to him and he has to really fight.
I just feel Conduit has a lot more acceleration than Sea the Stars and I can’t see how he is going to cope with him. I really think it’s a foregone conclusion that Conduit will be way too good for him. I just can’t imagine Sea the Stars in a fight ovr the last furlong and a half and finding what it takes to win what I regard as his toughest task to date.
If the reason is he was still slightly undeveloped in the Guineas and the Derby, he could still turn out to be a very special horse.
You could just dismiss him and say he’s not good enough but personally I’d say he’s going to improve a lot with time.
It could come on Saturday or it might not come until next saeson but I believe he will turn out to be a top class horse before te end of the day.
One point is, horses that hit flat spots don’t often win when races turn into a sprint so the Derby pace probably never suited him as some people think.
Sea the Stars looks the part but he will have to be 7 to 10lbs better than Authorized to win. Conduit is certainly regarded a lot higher than Notnowcato was that’s for sure.
If it developes into a fight between him and Conduit and he wins this like he did his 2 previous races he will join the true greats of the game IMO
One thing’s for sure Conduit is a totally different ball game to what Delegator and Fame and Glory were when they met him.
Now, ignoring the fact that Sea The Stars quickened twice to win the Eclipse and has (by your own assertion) proven himself to be at least 7-10lb better than Authorized, why is he suddenly not worthy of joining the all time greats? He hasn’t had to fight Conduit because he’s absolutely murdered him, and he’s fended off Rip Van Winkle (a horse you claimed could still turn out to be very special) ultimately comfortably.
The athletics example was a waste of time, wasn’t it? Everything I needed was right here
So what you are saying is we saw Conduit at his best? I hardly think so.
Of all the races I have saw Rip Van Winkle run in that was the most disappointing. We can’t be kidding ourselves about him either no matter how much potential we think he has he won a Maiden and a Group 3 to date and that’s it.
Before the Eclpipse I saw him as a horse with potential but he has come there to win his race and didn’t see it through. He been ridden hads and heels to get to StS’s but when he gives him a crack he goes nowhere. He hangs one way then the other and makes no further ground. That plonker McGrath shouts he accelerates when the gap seemed to open up on the screen but was caused by RVW going more sideways than StS going forward? I just watched it again and damned if I saw Sea the Stars do anything but run on strongly. Albeit an excellent performance he does not have the power finish of an all time great and will never be remembered as one.
RVW is not a horse I would now trust with a lot of money.
I’m not knocking StS he’s a good horse I am saying it as it actually is in my eyes. You’re blowing his achievements way out of proportion like you did with DOM last year.
Talking of which why don’t you watch this if you want to see what the word Superstar really means you should watch this. Don’t see this lot all out to beat animals that have basically won nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YpQtnBdqLI
Look ahead and what do you see?. He misses the King George? and the race is worth 3/4 of a million pounds but Oxx is not prepared to have a rematch with Conduit? That’s stinks of a man with no confidence in a horse getting the trip in a true run race.
I truly hope he has a chnage of heart and runs the horse despite my cash being on Conduiit.
Instead he goes for a 250,000 pounds race where his closest rival could be Tartan Bearer. A lot of good that will do the horses reputation if he beats him. Only thing is there’s another SMS improving hand over fist and if this takes him on then he might just get his ass felt at York.
Then of course the Arc…..can’t go there the ground might be soft. Might be good as well but IMO he wouldn’t win an arc anyway. I think Oxx thinks the same to be honest.
So you tell me what kind of Supestar Derby winner doesn’t go for the King George or the Arc?
http://i26.tinypic.com/2eelqw2.gif
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/madhouse_/Animated/thumb_shake.gif
So you tell me what kind of Superstar Derby winner doesn’t go for the King George or the Arc?
10f horses who were stretched out for the Derby like Sir Percy, New Approach and Sea The Stars?
It seems to me certain people are have a bias against Sea The Stars for no other reason than he keeps winning against their judgement.
I really hope he runs in the King George, which i would personally see as a penalty kick for him, and shuts all this nonsense up.
Mind you if he does run and win i’m sure some new theory would appear as to why it was yet another unimpressive Group 1 win.
It’s depressing, isn’t it?
For all the critics US racing has, watch the NBC coverage of the BC F&M from 2008 and listen to the plaudits they give Zenyatta. That is how to appreciate a racehorse who keeps winning at Group/Grade 1 level, no matter who the opposition is.
It’s bizarre that some people are prepared to give Sariska more praise for winning a extremely poor run Irish Oaks, compared to what they give STS for running a fast paced Eclipse. I try and avoid putting horses on a golden platter because i had a successful bet on them, and try to refuse to condemn them to mediocrity because i lost.
We should be grateful, that unlike the Americans, our trainers are more than willing to put there best horses up against each other as long as the going suits.
I wonder that too. Sea The Stars is at a top condition at the moment and his trainer makes the best of it. That is all he can do in my opinion.
I will be very surprised if Sea The Stars runs in the KIng George & Queen Elizabeth stakes at Ascot.
Though, should John Oxx change his mind, then I cannot really see any of the others beating him.
A question for Fist :
Would you oppose Sea The Stars if he lines up at Ascot ?
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
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Already backed Conduit at 5/1 along time ago so it’s a bit late for me. Do I think he would beat Sea the Stars? No!!! but I think Oxx is a plonker. If Sea the Stars was mines I’d risk running him in the King George. If he won it his stud value would go through the roof and let’s face it, it does not look like a great race.
Breeders will think twice about sending mares to Sea the Stars if he sticks to 1m2f and doesn’t prove beyond doubt he gets 1m4f.
I honestly think they have lost the plot as they have far less to lose than gain by sending the horse.
However I don’t go back on what I said this is no Mill Reef. This is a very good horse among what are begining to look like a bad lot.
Rip Van Winkle V Brigadier Gerard just doesn’t compute in my pea brain and people use the word "Great" way too easily.
Can I ask you "H" in all honestly where would you rate Sea the Stars in your top 10 of Derby winners?
Is there any point at all in recounting previous winners from corresponding races years and years ago?
He has won the Guineas, Derby and Eclipse – history tells us this rarely happens. So is it wrong to call it a great achievement?
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