Champion Stakes (The worse group one of the year)

[Micks4321]

I am not knocking Twice Over but for me this race now sadly seems to be targeted by the major stables with horses who they know are nearly done for the season but think they can pick this race up easyily as such a poor contest.

Ballydoyle(Coolmore) are guilty of this and I have avoided their runners since Hurricane Run(Yes I know A P didnt train him but still Coolmore). It seems to me like the horses they run here are always going down in terms of fitness etc.

This race for me needs to be re diarised as not a true group one for me, I suppose the difficulty for the organisers is when do they run it being so close to the Arc and Breeders Cup.

For me you will never see a superstart run in the race again, but is that not what group ones should be about, attracting superstars???

[Lewey]

Twice Over is a very underrated horse IMO. I would say the Lockinge is generally the worst group one of the year.

[Anonymous]

They’re all nearly done for the season, Mick, because it’s…well…nearly the end of the season. Other than Sea The Stars, and perhaps a couple who ran in the Arc, what else could have gone for the race?

[Micks4321]

Masterofthehorse
Rip Van Winkle

Instead they go to the America, my point is the Champion stakes has no appeal to big stables anymore.

[jose1993]

I’m not going to go into the whole issue of the Champion Stakes being the worst Group 1 of the year, because it’s quite simply not. We just don’t need the race when you look at the race on an individual basis. It is as simple as that in my opinion. There are how many 1m 2f Group 1’s in Europe throughout the season? The Champion Stakes comfortably qualifies as a Group 1 and will do for as long as the race exists. It’s just nowhere near as good or as exciting as other 1m 2f Group 1 races and that’s why no one cares about it. That is because of other more prestigious end of season targets like the Breeders Cup, Arc and even the Japan Cup.

[tbracing]

You think Masterofthehorse would have made this a better group 1??

Granted it isn’t the greatest group1 around but we did have a dual Oaks winner and an Irish Derby winner so not all bad, can’t think of too many others that could have run as Equitrack says.

[Venusian]

Perhaps there are too many 10f Group 1 races to go round.

In the UK this year there were 4 (all-aged) of them, 5, if you include the mares-only Nassau.

By contrast, only 1 beyond 12f.

Congratulations to H. Cecil anyway, richly deserved win for him.

[Micks4321]

I think the timing is the problem.

With regard to the Irish Derby winner running in the race, he only ran here as somewhere to finish off for the season, his Autumn target as everyone knows was the Arc.

I dont think many trainers set off in April and have the Champion Stakes in mind for any of their stablee stars, its not a race that fires up excitement.

What if they made it a race over 9f in an attempt to attract the best milers against mile quarter, maybe a pointless excercise as most of the best milers in the world either go for the mile at BC or step up to the classic.

Are we loosing groupd race appeal to the rest of the world???

[Gingertipster]

Hang on,

Granted Twice Over’s performance was not of top quality. But both Fame And Glory and Sariska were up to normal Group 1 standard if running to form. Not the race’s fault they failed to show it.

Last year New Approach put up one of the best performances seen in the race, beating this years winner by six lengths.

The Arc’s increasingly bigger profile, Breeders Cup and other international races do take horses away. But there is still room for the race. The Breeders Cup Classic run on the pro-ride synthetic surface for the first time last year, instead of dirt, has claimed some runners.

Value Is Everything

[Irish Stamp]

Perhaps there are too many 10f Group 1 races to go round.

In the UK this year there were 4 (all-aged) of them, 5, if you include the mares-only Nassau.

By contrast, only 1 beyond 12f.

Congratulations to H. Cecil anyway, richly deserved win for him.

Too many and the French have just made a new one for 2009 – the Prix Jean Romanet in August (fillies and mares aged 3 and up).

[Micks4321]

Could it not be argued after Fame and Glorys poor showing in the Arc that he was not capable of going for the better end of season races? He wasnt even able for this today, very poor showing although the horse is on the go a long time, but I think it kind of proves my point. Ballydoyle would rather take a chance on a horse who I reckon they know is tired at the end of the season and cant compete at top class company. They are not bothered running their peak top class primed horses in this race.

For me The Irish Champion Stakes is the real Champion 1.2 Mile race in Europe, has been for a while now.It has the prestiege and calibre that the Champion Stakes really is lacking. If Newmarket wanted to spark this meeting up they should link up with Breeders Cup in some format and also introduce a 6 furlong group race on the card with winners of all the days races automatically gaining entry in Breeders Cup race relevant to it.

[Friggo]

my point is the Champion stakes has no appeal to big stables anymore.

I can’t be having that for a second. Today’s field of 14 had runners trained by O’Brien, Stoute, Gosden, bin Suroor, Cecil and two from France (in a race which comes just 13 days after their own premier middle-distance event), not to mention a dual Oaks winner and a runner supplemented at a cost of £30,000. I strongly suspect- no, I’m nigh-on certain, that this thread wouldn’t have been started had Fame And Glory or Sariska won the race.

Ballydoyle would rather take a chance on a horse who I reckon they know is tired at the end of the season and cant compete at top class company. They are not bothered running their peak top class primed horses in this race.

Let me point you in the right direction on this one:

1) Coolmore is a breeding operation.

2) In post-race comments after one of his runners wins a Group 1, Aidan O’Brien tends to talk up the horse’s speed.

Now check out the major victories to date of Ballydoyle’s 3 most successful 2009 3-y-os:

Rip Van Winkle:
Sussex Stakes (G1)-

1m

QEII Stakes (G1)-

1m

Mastercrafstman:
2x G1 wins at

2 yrs

over

6f/7f

Irish 2000 Guineas (G1)-

1m

St. James’ Palace Stakes (G1)-

1m

Fame And Glory:
Irish Derby (G1)-

1m4f

Criterium de Saint-Cloud (

2-y-o

G1)-

1m2f

Now, if I was a breeder who wanted my potential stallions to have proven their speed, which one of the above three would I send to a 3-y-o+ Group 1 over 1m2f?

[clivexx]

Ballydoyle would rather take a chance on a horse who I reckon they know is tired at the end of the season and cant compete at top class company.

Dylan Thomas in Hong kong was an example of that

Todays race was certainloy not the worst group one of the year. Could argue that it had more depth than the supposedly preeminent irish champion stakes this time around. The race that preceeded todays could well have been the "worst" group one this year…we shall see

The timing is tricky but the race holds its own quite nicely IMO

[davidjohnson]

Wasn’t Dylan Thomas’ Arc, or his Irish Champion Stakes (take your pick which), or his King George an example he could compete at top-class company. Wasn’t his run in Hong King rather political in the end? The Japansese had barred him from turning out in the Japan Cup because they weren’t happy with his vaccination reports whereas Hong Kong seemed very willing to accomodate him.

[clivexx]

In fairness yes.

[Gingertipster]

Could it not be argued after Fame and Glorys poor showing in the Arc that he was not capable of going for the better end of season races? Ballydoyle would rather take a chance on a horse who I reckon they know is tired at the end of the season and cant compete at top class company. They are not bothered running their peak top class primed horses in this race.

For me The Irish Champion Stakes is the real Champion 1.2 Mile race in Europe, has been for a while now.It has the prestiege and calibre that the Champion Stakes really is lacking.

Are you saying Fame And Glory is past his best (not capable now)?
Or has never been capable of top class form?

If the former, I agree; if the latter, no way.

Ballydoyle identified a 1m2f race that they could win with Fame And Glory; if running to his Irish Champion form. It is sad, but to attract good mares a stallion needs to win a three year old plus Group 1 at 1m2f or less. Yesterday’s race may well have been the only possible 10f race they had left for him. Next year may not have enough speed for this distance. The fact it was only a couple of weeks after the Arc and on a firm surface; had to be overcome.

Some years the Irish Champion will be the better race (this year), sometimes the English Champion (last year).

Value Is Everything

[Spitfire]

The Falmouth and Sun Chariot year after year always make a strong bid for the worst Group 1 of the year. Twice Over won a fairly average Group 1 yesterday.

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