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Reet,
That only strengthens my case. Conduit ran very similar races in Eclipse and Arc. Simply not good enough in either.I wonder what it would take to weaken your case?
If a horse gets outpaced and then finishes well in a strongly run 12f race, (particularly a former Leger winner), then it’s hardly a quantum leap to suggest that he wouldn’t be as good over 2f shorter. Rather than exhorting others to burn their form books, I’d suggest you study your own more closely, if you think otherwise.
Reet,
Sorry, I misunderstood your point, tired at 2:00 AM when I replied.
Horses can run to very similar marks at two, three or even four distances. Sea The Stars (probable optimum 10 furlongs) is capable of top class form at 8f given a test of stamina, and 12f with a test of speed. If Sea The Stars ran on soft at 12f, he probably was not capable of running to form (not stay). Coolmore were at pains to make Both Sussex and QEII in to stamina tests. Rip Van Winkle then able to reproduce his 10f form, he’d struggle in a slowly run mile.
Of course Conduit stayed on in both Eclipse and Arc. But I don’t believe IN A TRULY RUN 10f, his “lack of pace” made a SIGNIFICANT difference at Sandown. Close enough if good enough. Conduit is capable of MAINTAINING a pace at 10f, good enough to run close to form. Had there been a slow or fair pace, Conduit would struggle. PACE is key.
Value Is Everything
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Of course Conduit stayed on in both Eclipse and Arc. But I don’t believe IN A TRULY RUN 10f, his “lack of pace” made a SIGNIFICANT difference at Sandown. Close enough if good enough. Conduit is capable of MAINTAINING a pace at 10f, good enough to run close to form. Had there been a slow or fair pace, Conduit would struggle. PACE is key.
Much like telling everyone else to burn their form books, it’s no good shouting ‘PACE is key’ when you plainly haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.
Both races were run at a good pace, yet in the 10f race Conduit was losing ground to the principals in the closing stages, whereas in the 12f race he was gaining it.
If that’s not significant, I’ll take up knitting.And no, value isn’t everything!
Reet,
I said some people, not everyone else. Please don’t exaggerate to try and make me look bad. You seem to know a bit about form.
We are really not that far apart:
You rate Sea The Stars the best horse at middle distances; I rate Sea The Stars the best middle distance performer. You rate Rip Van Winkle best miler in these Isles; I rate Rip Van Winkle best miler in these Isles.
How much better they are than other horses is just opinion. So we have a difference of opinion about Conduit’s Eclipse run, big deal. You still have not told us how you rate the Eclipse, I presume yo can . Anyway, like form students everywhere, we have different opinions, I respect yours. Either one of us could be right.Though you did seem to change your opinion depending on what you’re argument was in this thread:
e.g. “RVW is the probably (certainly imo) the best miler in these islands”.
Most people see his Sussex stakes victory as his best. Indeed the only performance that marks him down as the best miler. Yet, talking about my rating of Sea The Stars you said Rip Van Winkle only:
“beat a 7f specialist”.
Logic therefore tells me you do not believe Paco Boy ran to form. So how do you rate Rip Van Winkle “the best miler” Reet?
As I said, we don’t seem to be that far apart when rating the best horses.
The people I described that might as well burn the form book are those who believe:“Said all year how bad the three year olds are”.
“I think Fame And Glory has run his race” (in the English Champion) “as he did in the Arc”.Don’t see how anyone who reads form can come to those conclusions. But who knows, I could be wrong.
Whether you think I know what I am talking about does not worry me Reet, as I am sure it does not worry Zarkava or Stilvi what I think of their form study. But I remind you, I do take on the Racing Post, Raceform etc. in a racing quiz and have come out on top. So I think I know what I am talking about, which is all that matters to me.
Value Is Everything- Total Posts 17716
Just my opinion OTS, but he had STS on toast until the fuel ran out, and it would have been a very different result over a little shorter.
The Santa Anita 10f isn’t nearly the same test as the Eclipse, afact no doubt borne in mind when STS’s connections decided to swerve the rematch
.
I think the only person relieved Sea The Stars isn’t going to Santa Anita is Aiden O’Brien!
‘Swerve’ the rematch? Are you serious?
After Sea The Stars destroyed Rip Van Winkle at Newmarket, they had their rematch at Epsom…then at Sandown…and the result was the same on each occasion.
Some people must have been watching a different Eclipse. Are was talking about the one at Sandown on July 4th?
The race I witnessed had two pacemakers. One to benefit Conduit and one to benefit Rip Van Winkle. Both came to win their races at the two marker when STS took over. They were 1/2 L and 2 L down, respectively, at the furlong pole before Sea The Stars, cool as you like, increased that advantage to 1 L and 5 1/2 L at the finish in a good time.
A truly run race and Sea The Stars did just enough to win like he always did. They came to challenge, he pulled out more. End of story. No excuses.
As for Zarkava vs Sea The Stars.
Again, people are basing their opinion on the proximity of Youmzain – a good yardstick, but hard to tell if he ran above last years effort, or not. Hell, it’s hard to compare his effort from one race to the next.
Difficult to judge how much Sea The Stars had left to give, given his laid back nature and his tendancy to only ever do just enough (Irish Champion, aside).
Both had a far from smooth journey. Zarkava fell out of the stalls, whilst STS was very fresh and got hit more times than Joe Bugner.
STS was 7 L down four furlongs from home. 2 L down at the three furlong pole. A head in front two out. 3 L up at the furlong marker. Eased down to win cosily by two.
The ease with which he made up that ground was incredible. Given a few love taps to wake him up and then the race was over. Boom – Just like that (as Tommy Cooper would say). Thank-you and Au revoir.
Zarkava was about 3 L down half a mile from home, but didn’t get her head in front until 1 1/2 L furlongs from the finish.
Granted, the acceleration at that point was impressive, but Sea The Stars would’ve had the race at his mercy by then and could have found more if required.
Despite her brilliance, one can argue that both Ouija Board and Bosra Sham have left an indelible mark on people greater than that of Zarkava.
Are you serious………."STS was 7 L down four furlongs from home" Bollox he was try half of that mate……freeze frame the video and look at it properly.
Incidentally Mick Kinane hit Sea the Stars 6 times in the way to the line and took fully 1 second longer to cover the last 4 1/2 furlongs than Zarkava did. So your theory that Sea the Stars would have been gone holds no water.
That aside I am sick of hearing about how both horse had a troubled path in the home straight. I clearly saw Zarkava slow down behind a wall of horses but I’m friggin sure Sea the Stars didn’t.
Turning for home Sea the Stars gets a lovely run up the inside and was pulled out a fraction to pass one horse and that was it.
As far as I can see everything points to Zarkava being the better Arc winner……She covered the important part of the race faster than StS despite meeting with trouble, she didn’t need to be slapped on the backside and she did so on good to soft ground not good as Sea the Stars did.
Overall Sea the Stars may have come out on top nut I don’t know as I have no way of comparing the 2, but I have no doubt in my mind Zarkava would have come out on top in the Arc.
Fist,
Are you really saying Zarkava is the better because it was achieved on softer going? Surely that does not matter.
If anything you could say the opposite. On softer going each length is worth less. Therefore STS put up a better performance in beating Youmzain by 2 lengths than Zarkava did (by 2 lengths). Also fewer horses act on good-soft than they do good, so her task was easier. You can twist these things however way you want.
I believe the performances deserve equal merit. Zarkava may have had the more problems in the home straight but STS was also intefered with. And Zarkava did not take such a strong hold.
You say you have no doubt about who would have come out on top. Well I have no doubt that there is a lot of doubt. You might have given prices of 1/100 about Zarkava and 33/1 Sea The Stars. I’d like to have taken the 33/1.
Value Is EverythingYou’re right, Fist
He was seven down at the five furlong pole and about three down four out.
Four lengths in a furlong and not completely wound up.
Not bad!! Even more impressive, actually.
It was that bit of tactical speed that won him the race and what makes him such a great horse. Kinane asked him to quicken and he did it in a flash.
Even after Zarkava found space, she didn’t display that kind of instant acceleration, in my opinion.
Jim McGrath said on The Sunday Forum "I said at one point ‘He’ll have to be a champion to win from there’ and a few strides later I’m saying ‘I think he is a champion’.
So very true.
Times mean nothing to me, mate. There are so many variables to a race that I don’t think it’s an accurate gage on a horses ability.
Seems to me that the same people who knocked the horse all season, looking to get him beat, are still bitter that he was never was and proved himself a true champion that could have competed in any generation.
You’re right, Fist
He was seven down at the five furlong pole and about three down four out.
Four lengths in a furlong and not completely wound up.
Not bad!! Even more impressive, actually.
It was that bit of tactical speed that won him the race and what makes him such a great horse. Kinane asked him to quicken and he did it in a flash.
Even after Zarkava found space, she didn’t display that kind of instant acceleration, in my opinion.
Jim McGrath said on The Sunday Forum "I said at one point ‘He’ll have to be a champion to win from there’ and a few strides later I’m saying ‘I think he is a champion’."
So very true.
Times mean nothing to me, mate. There are so many variables to a race that I don’t think it’s an accurate gage on a horses ability.
Seems to me that the same people who knocked the horse all season, looking to get him beat, are still bitter that he was never was and proved himself a true champion that could have competed in any generation.
- Total Posts 17716
First time I’ve been right twice in the same day
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